White Star, WS Enforcer, WS Gunship

[Lord David the Denied]

I don't know, our main line warship doesn't have dodge and adaptive armour. If you consider the Vorchan the "go-to" ship of choice, it has no defence against fighters at all.

The White Star, though, can dodge fighter attacks, AA blunts them and it has accurate weapons in the front arc. One variant also has a flight of excellent fighters aboard. If people used less scout versions they'd have a decent screen.

 

[Zeru]

But we have no real variety other THEN the wonderful WS, while the same can't be said for the Centauri.

We of course have 1 ally slot, but that only does so much for ship variety when your only Raid level ship is a WS.

The WS 2 comes with a single flight, but has a slight speed drop as well as loses scout. Now I would take a few of these myself, but 1 fighter flight is still 1 fighter flight.

In a 5 points raid, a standard make-up would probably be; 2 WS, 2 WS II, and an allied ship or some blue stars.

That is 2 fighters flights + whatever the allied ship offers.

Centauri can use 1 of those raid slots and have a Fleet carrier with 8 excellent fighter flights aboard.

 

[Foxmeister]

Well, to be fair, the ISA can use their ally slot to pick an Avenger, which is a Raid level carrier with 8 good fighters.....

Of course, if the ISA allies rule changes, this may not be much of an option in future.


Regards,

Dave

 

[Greg Smith]

Oh, and Greg. Why should a ship using fighter interceptors not be able to dodge? That makes zero sense. The fighters are the ones purposely placing themselves between the ship and the incoming fire, not the ship. [/color]

Because the evasive manuevers make it difficult for the fighters to both maintain a position between the enemy and the ship and orient themselves to shoot down incoming fire.

 

[Da Boss]

Regardless of that, standing off and sniping isn't what's seen on screen.

Not in general no, but that doesn't preclude long range attacks, for example, the sniping shot at the bomb intended to destroy B4 (Yes i know that opens a whole kettle of fish about the relative ranges of INL and MP on the WS) but the point stands.

LBH
Lack of evidence is not evidence of lack

not exactly sniping in this case - more screaming forwards at max speed (APTE) trying to get into range?

 

[Da Boss]

You know, though, fighters are a major problem for the Centauri, too. We get one nice carrier at raid, a couple of flights on the battle choices and reasonable numbers on the war and armageddon choices, otherwise we just don't have them. A fighter-heavy race like EA can really do a number om us with their fighters and we don't have the AF to stop them. We don't get allies to counter that apparently intentional weakness, though.

Weak against fighters - Hmm not so much - we have three primary defences against fighters

An excellent Raid level carrier / warship /damage soak/ Command ship
Simply superb fighters - all really good at what they do and with a minimum dogfight of +2.
The Maximus - not only lending AF but interceptors as well

and just to make sure we are getting a Skirmish level carrier in P+P..........

IMHO we have no major problem with fighters................unless its with someone like the Gaim (who emine yours) or you don't precautions.

 

[Da Boss]

Well, to be fair, the ISA can use their ally slot to pick an Avenger, which is a Raid level carrier with 8 good fighters.....

Of course, if the ISA allies rule changes, this may not be much of an option in future.

Regards,
Dave

Agreed, or the Ashinta - a very powerful and useful ship...............

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Weak against fighters - Hmm not so much - we have three primary defences against fighters

An excellent Raid level carrier / warship /damage soak/ Command ship
Simply superb fighters - all really good at what they do and with a minimum dogfight of +2.
The Maximus - not only lending AF but interceptors as well

and just to make sure we are getting a Skirmish level carrier in P+P..........

IMHO we have no major problem with fighters................unless its with someone like the Gaim (who emine yours) or you don't precautions.

What if, Da Boss, you want that raid slot for a Centurion, or Elutarian? Or to break it down into Vorchans? The Balvarin is great but you can't always rely on having one, and it's still only 8 fighters.

Superb fighters, yes, they're wonderful - but so are Starfuries, Nials and Zorths. There are enough fighters that are as good, and there are fighters that aren't as good that are available in sufficient numbers to overwhelm Centauri fighters.

The Maximus, yes, but the same as the Balvarin it's not always available or viable, and it can't be everywhere. Having a defence ship means the ships it defends are defenceless without it - the Primus is AF 2 for pity's sake! Most Centauri ships have no AF at all and those that do have too little. The Maximus has 4, to share, but look at EA, how much AF do they have?

Fighters are a weakness for the Centauri; given our strengths it may not be as bad a weakness as it could be, but it's there.

 

[Da Boss]

Hmm I understand what you are saying but we do have the choice and the answers without needing allies - if you are going for heavy firepwoer at the expense of fighter protection - thats a choice and some opponents will exploit that weakness.

My Centauri very rarely leave port without a Balvarian (may even need to change my signature actually)..............

EA - at Crusade they don''t even have a escort and their only carrier is at War? COmpare our AF defences with the Dilgar?

As I said we are even getting a skirmish level carrier...........

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Sure, others have the same weakness. Doesn't mean we don't have it.

 

[SylvrDragon]

Sure, others have the same weakness. Doesn't mean we don't have it.

It's hardly fair to compare your "weakness" to the ISA. You HAVE AF, the ISA doesn't. Yea, Centauri may have fewer fighters than EA, but they have a crap ton more than ISA and they have MUCH easier access. Oh, and they actually HAVE AF, unlike the majority of the ISA's ships. The only ships with AF in the ISA, aside from allies, are the Nolo'Tar, White Star Carrier and the Victory. So we're supposed to protect our fleet from fighters using F arc weapons, that can be largely avoided by proper maneuvering, the AF systems from 1 Armageddon, 1 War, and 1 at best decent Skirmish, as well as a handful of fighters.

Let's break this down to a 5 point battle. Fairly Average. I'll be using the new point system from P&P 1.2 because that's what my group uses.

Well, the Victory is pretty much out of the question as it would be virtual suicide to take.

So I'd go with...

1 WS Carrier
4 White Star II's
3 Nolo'Tar
2 Blue Star

Not my first choice for a fleet, but excluding allies this is about as good as it gets on the anti-fighter front.

Total AF power...

4 Nials
8 White Star Fighters
16 AF dice (12 of which are on Escorts)

If you use the Blue Stars purely defensively, which is what I do against fighters fleets, you get 2 dedicated ships with 4 accurate AD each, but these can only stop fighters after they've done damage and not before.

Now, let's pair this against a Centauri fleet that's wanting some anti-fighter power.

1 Secundus
2 Balvarian
2 Morgrath
4 Maximus
3 Elutarian

Perhaps not the best Centauri list, but I'm not Centauri player. Still seems solid to me though.

Total AF power...

16 Sentri or Razik
28 AF dice (16 of which are on Escorts)

Using just Sentris this is more than enough to deal with what the ISA has in fighters from the above list, and if you went with Raziks it would just be an embarrassing game for the ISA as far as fighters go. And this isn't even a list tooled out just for space superiority. It could easily be pushed further by replacing an Elutarian for another Balvarian, as well as replacing the Secundus with a Primus. But I figured this list contains more than what's needed for protection, while sacrificing not too much in the firepower department.

Sure the Centauri may pale in comparison to EA, but I think you're confusing you having a weakness, with them having a strength. ISA is weak against fighters. EA is strong against fighters. I think this leaves Centauri somewhere in the middle, not so much weak, but not exactly strong.

 

[H]

OR by changing how those layered defences work.

I've been thinking about that.

How about:

A ship with fighters acting as interceptors cannot dodge.

The WS cannot fire its laser while on CBD. Or fire at all.

(Fluff reasons could easily be found for both of those).

Foxmeister seems to think that smaller, faster ships can counter the stand off and snipe problem.

have to be honest, that while I admire you are still prepared to make an effort for this big ole problem, I don't like the above solutions, in all fairnes i very very rarely see anyone use fighters as escorts on a WS, primarily because a lot of fighters can't even keep up with a WS lol, plus the ISa as everyone is saying get few fighters of their own, and they need to do an interceptors job to take out incoming fighters themselves. indeed the only real dent I have made in the whitestar is a frazi swarm up the jacksy ;-)
the can't fire laser on CBD is possibly viable, but i can feel the wrath of the Colonial ISA players as i read it, they seem a lot more in favour of keeping the whitestar cheese! would be interesting to see how it played though next time you get a game in. try knife fight WS and Existing WS with no firing if CBD against DaBoss Centauri either as two seperate fights, or in the same battle so see how each ws fares?

 

[SylvrDragon]

First round of our local campaign begins tomorrow, and we're using the P&P v1.2 rules. We'll see how my knife fighting White Stars fare.

 

[Methos5000]

I don't know, our main line warship doesn't have dodge and adaptive armour. If you consider the Vorchan the "go-to" ship of choice, it has no defence against fighters at all.

The White Star, though, can dodge fighter attacks, AA blunts them and it has accurate weapons in the front arc. One variant also has a flight of excellent fighters aboard. If people used less scout versions they'd have a decent screen.

Not completely disputing your claim but AA hurts ISA when it comes to fighter swarms. Lots of low AD weapons, sometimes in two banks on some fighters, can ping the low Damage/Crew rating WS to death in a single turn. Sure WS can dodge some of the fire, but on none of the WS class ships until war level do you have to worry about AF weapon so everyone can bring their 2" guns to bear on them as well. Take fast 2 bank fighters like Thunderbolts, Torpedofighters or Rutarians and WS can end up in quite a pinch unless they get some lucky dodge rolls.

For the record I use the WS II more then the WS I. But 3 Nials on the table for 3 raid points does very little to offset the 8 Sentrys a Centauri opponent can bring or the 8 Starfuries an EA player can bring or the 10 Dartfighters a Dilgar Player can bring with just ONE raid point.

I know the popular answer to this is just take allies....but then it seems everyone gets upset for ISA having such a large list of allies. Only a couple allies choices seriously offset the ISA fighter weakness and some of those choices can make the ISA fleet over the top.

I can take 1 raid point of allies in a raid level scenario so I can take 1 Avenger or maybe a Brokados or perhaps a couple Brikortas or Xeels. Any of those choices give me 8 fighters max. Most races can easily outstrip ISA on fighters especially knowing how vulnerable WS are to fighters. My only true solution to offset my fighter weakness is the Gaim Stuteeka giving me a nasty combination of fighter swarm and emines, but that is a road I won't walk down because that is one combination I believe is over the top.

Fighters are a weakness for the Centauri; given our strengths it may not be as bad a weakness as it could be, but it's there.

I am not saying the Centauri are immune to fighters, they certainly do have some vulnerabilities, but they also have one of the best escorts in the games with the best defensive lending ability in the game. The Balvarin Carrier is one of the best carriers in the games hands down. It has high damage and crew for a Raid ship and carries +2/+3 dogfighters (+3/+4 with the Fleet Carrier ability it has) and its damage output isn't to shabby for a carrier either. My point in this it is a minor but managable weakness for the Centauri it can easily be dealt with using ships in your own fleet. The ISA's fighter weakness is a major weakness and the only way to deal with it is choosing outside allies, the primary choice being a major sore point for many people.

Its not impossible for the ISA to win against a fighter heavy opponent but generally a lot more luck is needed for them to win against such an opponent then most of the other races. Add in the new shorter range knife fight WS (im not opposed to it, i supported the concept) and it makes fighter even better against them as all you need to do is keep your fighters near your ships and they will be able to move into range and shoot at WS with most fighters still being able to avoid the accurate F arc of WS.

 

[Greg Smith]

have to be honest, that while I admire you are still prepared to make an effort for this big ole problem,

I feel the knife-fight version is too big a change.

I think the WS needs a tweak to to help slower fleets. Personally I feel the previous fix (1AD laser when on CDB or firing pulsars) was the best of a bad lot.

I feel like I'm peeing into the wind sometines though.

the can't fire laser on CBD is possibly viable, but i can feel the wrath of the Colonial ISA players as i read it, they seem a lot more in favour of keeping the whitestar cheese!

To be honest, I think the problem is more of a rock/paper/scissors one than a cheese one.

would be interesting to see how it played though next time you get a game in.

Too many playtests, not enough time....

 

[H]

just a question if I may, why the sudden comparisons between centauri and ISA? I know Greg and Da Boss played a game recently, but they also played EA V Narn.

remember, paper scissors stone, compare the ISA to a fighter light fleet, like the Vorlons.... suddenly the ISA will probably win a fighter war with the Vorlon players AGAIN saying they want a carrier, but instead get a useless armageddon ship! . . .

 

[Methos5000]

OR by changing how those layered defences work.

I've been thinking about that.

How about:

A ship with fighters acting as interceptors cannot dodge.

The WS cannot fire its laser while on CBD. Or fire at all.

(Fluff reasons could easily be found for both of those).

Foxmeister seems to think that smaller, faster ships can counter the stand off and snipe problem.

have to be honest, that while I admire you are still prepared to make an effort for this big ole problem, I don't like the above solutions, in all fairnes i very very rarely see anyone use fighters as escorts on a WS, primarily because a lot of fighters can't even keep up with a WS lol, plus the ISa as everyone is saying get few fighters of their own, and they need to do an interceptors job to take out incoming fighters themselves. indeed the only real dent I have made in the whitestar is a frazi swarm up the jacksy ;-)
the can't fire laser on CBD is possibly viable, but i can feel the wrath of the Colonial ISA players as i read it, they seem a lot more in favour of keeping the whitestar cheese! would be interesting to see how it played though next time you get a game in. try knife fight WS and Existing WS with no firing if CBD against DaBoss Centauri either as two seperate fights, or in the same battle so see how each ws fares?

Being one of those 'Colonial' ISA players I can say that I have never supported the widely accepted cheesestar maneuver of sitting back at 18" and CBD while sniping and nor to I want that practice to continue, please do not lump us all in the same category.

Plus if you keep the original WS but says it can't fire its gun if it CBD doesn't really solve the sniping problem, if you sit behind your enemy at 18" and shoot but can't get shot at what does CBD matter?(I believe this argument was brought up with the original nerf as well, that and the argument that people would just start using more gunships).

The problem with no firing when CBD for WS means it will be the same as in the Batrep. It will be used on approach but once the ship is in range it will never be used again unless the ship can't fire at something (which again could have just as well be done in that battle.) You could also say that it can't dodge when it CBD as the exhaust ports or something are closed to protect against explosions but you end up with the same result, something that won't be used. If the intent is prevent WS from using it then just add a special rule that due to the unique design of WS type ships (BS/WS/WSG/WSC) there are no blast doors to close or energy grid to activate hence it cannot use this SA.

I like the Knife Fight version though it does open up a new set of vulnerablities, fleets that already could deal with WS mights have an easier job of it now and against some fleets it still maybe too much (waiting to see Narn vs ISA and Abbai vs ISA batreps to see if it changes anything against them since that was a couple of the major complaints with the existing WS).

In the end more playtesting will be needed. Personally I think CBD is the major problem here it should just be done away with, it simply messes with to many things.

 

[Burger]

I don't get how you can "sit" at 18" and CBD? Surely next turn you have to move half speed if you want to CBD again, so you're hardly sitting at 18" any more... unless you have Sheridan on board!

 

[Methos5000]

I feel the knife-fight version is too big a change.

I think the WS needs a tweak to to help slower fleets. Personally I feel the previous fix (1AD laser when on CDB or firing pulsars) was the best of a bad lot.

I feel like I'm peeing into the wind sometines though.

Im not opposed to a tweak I just thought that particular tweak encouraged the wrong kind of behavior (specifically the sit back and snipe as it discouraged people from firing their Pulsars) I am still open to more ideas. My original proposal reversed the way it worked, if you only fired the Laser it was 1AD but if you fired both you got full attack power, I provided fluff for why, the weapon capacitors were designed for rapid firing of both weapon systems only firing one cause a feedback that restricted power output, but sadly it didn't seem to take to well with most but the Knife fight was somewhat of a compromise in that in encouraged similar behavior to my original idea. What about the Knife fight version with the special rule that the INL has a built in Long range Targetting System? 2AD 0"-10" 1AD at 10.1"-15"

just a question if I may, why the sudden comparisons between centauri and ISA? I know Greg and Da Boss played a game recently, but they also played EA V Narn.

remember, paper scissors stone, compare the ISA to a fighter light fleet, like the Vorlons.... suddenly the ISA will probably win a fighter war with the Vorlon players AGAIN saying they want a carrier, but instead get a useless armageddon ship! . . .

Personally I think the Vorlons are one of the races the ISA can excel against, they can outnumber the Vorlons and outmaneuver them. ISA fighters may not be very useful against them (exception: Thunderbolts would do okay) as most ISA fighters only have 2" guns and would be vulnerable to AAF Vorlon ships have, especially since a pure ISA fleet could not bring very many fighters to the table anyway. But if you can maneuver properly once you get behind the Vorlons it can pretty much be over. Like you said RPS which is why it makes it so hard to properly balance a ship like the WS.

The Centauri comparison was brought up because of the fighter weakness in the Centauri fleet being brought up. I was just pointing out that while the Centauri may have a weakness to fighters I think the ISA weakness is far worse. It one of the situations where AA hurts you as I mentioned in my previous post. The only solution to the ISA fighter weakness is taking certain allies but you may as well open Pandora's Box when you mention ISA taking allied ships on here.

 

[Da Boss]

Sure, others have the same weakness. Doesn't mean we don't have it.

Sure the Centauri may pale in comparison to EA, but I think you're confusing you having a weakness, with them having a strength. ISA is weak against fighters. EA is strong against fighters. I think this leaves Centauri somewhere in the middle, not so much weak, but not exactly strong.

As a Centauri player totally agree

Also rather than the Secondus - stick in Liati in your example - 2 more (and better) fighters PLUS 16 dice of accurate guns (8 on a turret) and has its own AF.