Which Fleet Should Be Next?

[Voronesh]

Im mostly with Shadowscout.

Though i disagree on the Pak issue. They should be competitive. I also think that raiders shoudl be boosted, simply for the same reason why Dilgar got a boost and First ones are weaker kinda. I mean if you take the raider issue expand upon it "They are weak because they are only raiders" you end up with "I play Vorlons you lose".

Oh yeah i AM with his rant on the wicked difference in weapon power of the slicer beam. The precise loss is a step, but they have more than twice the range..... You dont manage that with just a few years of blindbox research. Or even less in the case of the ShadowOmega. That one was only a testbed for gods sake. It should have like half the range of the battlecrab slicer beam.

Oh yeah rant over.

And i love Pak. So dont turn them inferior or anything. They need sturdy ships. Cause they are scavengers after all. You cant scavenge a spacewreck, if you have to fear for your fragile ship like the Drakh. The Pak could be brawlers like Narn that work with lots of Plasma weapons instead of Laser Cannons and short range secondaries.
They could be a combination of Narn and Dilgar. Focusing a bit on the aspect of Plasma and Armor. So no speedy ships like Targrath, and not total sluggers like Rongoths. Something in the middle, with extra firepower in return.

Just a stray thought.

 

[Nomad]

Belt Alliance - Definitely. This is what I'd most like to see, and would most definitely buy (but please, low-tech human-designed looking ships). Have I mentioned that we desperately need some more Raider designs, also?

Pak'Ma'Ra - Yes, please. I'd rather you used the old AoG minis, as I liked them and own a few, but any way up, the Pak.

Thirdspace - yes, but I'd rather see the PaK and the BA first.

Early Centauri and Orieni - eventually. The problem with these is they don't really have anyone to fight apart from each other.

Gaim - definitely, but they form a peice with Early Centauri and the Orieni, as they use a number of the obsolete Orieni war period Centauri hulls. Their other ships are also re-flagged Drazi, EA et.c vessels, plus some salvaged Markab ships, so they really wait on the release of early Centauri and the Markab.

Ipsha - apart from one, brief glimpse of the Battleglobe, I don't really know anything about them.

Shadow EA - No thanks. As an EA player I really don't want things with wings, or tentacles...A new Crusade-era skirmish level ship would be appreciated, as would the early Laertes corvette, and the Condor troop carrier.

Markab, Cascor, Alacans - I'd really like to see some ships from these races to fill out Dilgar war era campaigns (also including the Pak).

Also, how about publishing stats - and paint schemes - for races who use other peoles' ships, such as the Llort and the Descari, who had captured/reverse engineered T'Loths, Rongoths and Goriths left over from failed Narn invasions (fitted with new weapons).

 

[emperorpenguin]

Early Centauri and Orieni - eventually. The problem with these is they don't really have anyone to fight apart from each other.
).

The Drazi were involved too and you could easily fight versus many other league races which were around then plus the Minbari. Only the EA and Narn would really be missing

 

[alien027]

who are the Gaim?

 

[Lord David the Denied]

You could shove the Dilgar into the early period fighting as well. They did smack the entire League around while the Centauri were still very powerful.

 

[E Nicely]

who are the Gaim?

Bug people

 

[Nomad]

who are the Gaim?

Insects, members of thr LoNAW. Hire themselves out as mercenaries a lot...often as ground troops. Tend not to value their own (or at any rate, each others') lives very highly.

 

[Silvereye]

I also think that raiders shoudl be boosted

Yes, but anytime Raiders try to set-up a small empire with large, military spec ships to prey on shipping, then all the major powers in the area will sit up take note, and send in lots of bigger, better ships to put the idea down. Raiders do need more ship designs, but I would think anything above Raid would be a really bad idea.

Cause they are scavengers after all. You cant scavenge a spacewreck, if you have to fear for your fragile ship like the Drakh.

Err, the Pak are scavengers in the carnivore/herbivore sense. The 'junk scavengers' are the Llort.

Ipsha - apart from one, brief glimpse of the Battleglobe, I don't really know anything about them.

There is battleglobe on the cover of Sky Full of Stars. And they get a bit of a write up in the Galactic Guide.

-Edit-
Fixed the horrible mess I made of the quotes.

 

[ShadowScout]

Though i disagree on the Pak issue. They should be competitive.

Never wrote they shouldn't be. Just not in the "combat-oriented" way. They ARE scavengers after all... good thing that with the exception of the Fuser, all AoG minis (OK, the four there are) have no visible weapons! So they can be reused with new rules easily (and let's be honest, their ships DO look a bit freighter-like. Especially the Resh'kas'u...).
I would envision them well-armored but lightly armed, mostly with defensive weaponry but also a few plasma cannons to encourage others to stay away. Definitely not as capable as purpose-built warships, but a bit better then raiders should be...
Maybe also a bit bigger then others. As it "Pak get a bigger ship for the same points, but their bigger ship doesn't have the punch of other races smaller ships, because much of it's volume is cargo space... but its greater mass can soak up more fire..." that sort of thing.

I also think that raiders shoudl be boosted, simply for the same reason why Dilgar got a boost and First ones are weaker kinda. I mean if you take the raider issue expand upon it "They are weak because they are only raiders" you end up with "I play Vorlons you lose".

I disagree. In my view of how things ought to be, Raiders should have weak ships, for reasons stated above. However, these ships shuold be priced accordingly of course, so that their chance of winning a battle comes from quantity instread of quality (and at equal numbers, they really should loose to regular military every time!) Same argument inverted for Vorlons - their ships ought to be sick hard, but outnumbered at "same Points" type of battles to keep things balanced. But if someone suggests vorlons should be as strong individually as younger races in the name of balance... well, by the same argument a fully equipped modern marine should have the same combat power then a stone-age thug with a club.
Personally I think forst ones should get boosted some more, with a few new priority levels...
...well, actually I would have prefered the current "Armageddon" younger race ships redone as "solitary War level units" (meaning they count as one war level, but you can field only one, no matter the size of your fleet to balance that they are a bit better then normal war levels, and you need a minimum size of fleet to include one at all) and the ancient powered up (like weapons range; Slicer Beams and Vorlon LC's ought to be range 40 IMO, and maybe the Slicer Beam should even get the "focused beam" idea I described above for more AD as the range closes; while the Vorlon Light Cruiser LC should have the same AD like the Victory LC and not less... while the Heavy Cruiser should have even a bit more firepower...) with the big cruisers as "Armageddon" level, and the Shadows and Vorlons too get one "Ancient" level command ship... (or maybe make the Vorlon Light Cruiser "Armageddon" and the HEavy Cruiser "Ancient", then Mongoose would need one less miniature... only a big ShadowShip... Hmmm, that reminds me to finish my "Shadow Command Ship" miniature conversion!)

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Now they should have left the Vorlon Heavy Cruiser at War and added in the Vorlon Dreadnought at Armageddon. We've all seen the model, use it...

 

[CZuschlag]

I haven't seen it, but have had it described to me, and, Captain David, you are indeed correct.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I believe there's a photo on this forum somewhere. Have a look for people's Vorlon fleets. Might only be FA scale but I suspect AoG would have made one in full scale as well.

 

[Voronesh]

I agree on the Raider issue, from a campaign sense. They only get up to raid. (Ok battle now... :S)

But the the PL themselves should be competitive. Yet instead a Strike Carrier sucks hard. Same goes for fighters...... Though at least you get masses of em. The Battlewagon is good though, why i dont know.

Its like this: the Vorlon Transport is a good skirmish lvl ship, on par with other skirmish choices. The Strike Carrier as a Skirmsih lvl choice isnt.

The fleet overall should be weak, because they do not get war, battle stuff. But the fleet itself should be able to win because of number of ships. Instead the moment you take a strike carrier you just hamper yourself.


On the Pak, yes but spaceships contain frozen food aka dead crew. Transport ships (luxury liner?) are like food barges.

And if they make the Thirdspace, it would be downright evil. Fighter at battle?

 

[Lord David the Denied]

The Strike Carrier shouldn't be compared to a gunship. Compare it to other carriers. It's better than the Balvarin and four of them are certainly superior to the Avenger. Its armament isn't spectacular but for a carrier at skirmish level it's fine and with four fighter flights, all launched in one turn and a jump point it's a decent choice for the Raiders.

 

[Voronesh]

Ahhh yes ok.

Milani, aas thats the same lvl. Ships of lower lvl tend to be better than those of upper lvl. Plus youre comparing apples with oranges here. Avenger can you say T-Bolt. Balvarin, Thank god for Raziks.

Milani carries the same crappy fighter frame, different name and design though. Now we can compare the actual designs on a fair lvl.
Strike carrier advantage: Can launch alot faster. (cant think of anything else...)
Milani: Better guns, more survivability. ok crappy launch rate, but the guns. Combat laser goodyness. And Abbai have a huge number of Twin particle arrays preventing early fighter strikes. The usual, Im out of range, so ill target your fast fighters.

The Battlewagon is great no doubt. But why is the Strike Carrier so: I dont know?


Backon track. New races.

More LONAW.

Centauri are fleshed out. EA dont need anything new at all. Thirdspace, too powerful (can kick ancient butt. What do you want to field at raid lvl, spacesuits?).

Anything Lonaw would be great. Pak lovely, Gaim insect goodyness/squishyness. Belt Alliance has a LONAW but human feel.

 

[Silvereye]

What the Raiders need are just a few more choices at the lower levels such as over armed freighters at Patrol and small gunboats at Skirmish. This would just give them a few more options than a Strike Carrier/Battlewagon swarm.

 

[Voronesh]

Actually i had something along the same lines.

Q-ships. Real ones, not ships that have short ranged weapons and a ship speed that stinks.

Or what about one-shot weapons, like a really devastating heavy missle salvo. That only works once.

The best i have seen was the modular battlewagon. Raiders would really work well with a modular system. The ships are just cobbled together, so a certain amount of local tech should go into it.

 

[ShadowScout]

What the Raiders need are just a few more choices at the lower levels such as over armed freighters at Patrol and small gunboats at Skirmish. This would just give them a few more options than a Strike Carrier/Battlewagon swarm.

True! That's exactly it.

And of course their strike carrier should be redone... the problem it has right now, is an waay overgrown miniature (just compare the fighters on the mini to the hangars on other minis - Omega, G`Quan - and you'll see the Strike Carrier is about twice as big as it ought to be), which in turn was tried to camoflage with inflated stats... massive structure and more weapons.

I would see the SC as a weak-structured (about Damage 18/4 or so) ship with minimal armament (perhaps a single turreted P-Beam) carrying it's 24 fighters (4 flights). It'd be great for bringing fighters, but can't afford to get caught by Anything - Just the thing I envision for raiders to build; great for ambushing (relatively) unarmed freighters, but nothing that could go toe-to-toe with any regular navy...

Q-ships. Real ones, not ships that have short ranged weapons and a ship speed that stinks.

Well... most Q-Ships would be armed freighters. As such their speed would rightfully stink... you can increase it only so much without giving the secret away. Of course, this could be balanced by long-range guns... however, a Q-Ship lives with surprise, and surprise usually needs no long guns. Just pretend to be a freighter, hide in a convoi and wait until a raider closes with the "helpless cargo-hauler" to steal the cargo - then run out your guns and let him have it at point-blank range. Boom, headshot. Bye, raider. Q-ships have no place in any fleet engagement, beacuse usually once they loose surprise, any warship will eat them for a snack (of course, Q-ships built on BIG hulls can mount enough firepower to take on a warship too - problem is, freighters in the B5 universe have medium to small hulls, while in some other universes -honorverse for example- they have hulls Bigger then most warships... In any case, that is one of the things I was missing in the "Merchants, Traders & Raiders" RPG supplement - the larger freighters AoG dreamt up, like Bulk Freighter -it exists in "The Fiery Trial"- and the Ore Barge -the hull the Battlewagon is built from-... of course, one can always build those for the RPG now that the ship building rules are released, and it isn't too hard to convert any such ships into CtA... miniatures would have been nice though... well, we'll see...).

Or what about one-shot weapons, like a really devastating heavy missle salvo. That only works once.

Stealing from Honorverse now, are we? :wink: Actually while such a ship may make sense for the navy (and then only for large scale wars or special operations units - a scout that can cover it's retreat with a one-time missile volley is a classic), ship missiles are not a good idea for raiders. Why? Because ammo is sooo expensive! Remember, raiders are into this for the profit. If they had any missiles at all, they wouldn't use them (unless they had no other choice) because every shot would cost them the profits from two successful raids (fighter missiles would be acceptable, as they're much easier to build, and thus much easier to get on the black market, but the big ship missiles are the equivalent of intercontinental missiles! those things don't come cheap or easy!).
Raiders will want guns that use energy as ammo, because energy can be supplied by fusion reactors which use hydrogen which is free if one finds a nice gas giant to mine...

The best i have seen was the modular battlewagon. Raiders would really work well with a modular system. The ships are just cobbled together, so a certain amount of local tech should go into it.

Agree in principle, but not in actual. Yes, modular design would be THE thing for raiders - not because they use modular design as such, but because every raider ship will be slightly different since they, as stated, are cobbled together from whatever hull and guns the raiders could buy, steal or scavenge, and a "modular system" is just the ruleset to represent this in a game. But the versions seen so far (Headhunter, Siege) are waaay over-armed.
I would like to see raider ships as "hulls with weapon spaces" and then a list of available weapons for these spaces (maybe even with a "availability table" on which you roll which guns you can take, complete with different chances for differtent weapons to make some hard to get weapons rarer in appereance then those easy to get guns...)

 

[Voronesh]

Actually i meant Q-ships the other way around.

EA patrol protect the freighter convoy, and then blammo a raider q-ship opens up with a deadly salvo. suddenly you have a full freight convoy for the taking without that worrysome hyperion around.
Actually any battle with raiders barely constitutes a fleet engagement.

And no im not stealing from honorverse. Actually ive only read a single book. Oneshot comes from Battletech or SST by MGP, your pick. Or preferably seikai no senki. They had huge missle ships. Basically artillery in space.

Plus heavy missles might have been a misnomer, call them rockets, unguided stuff, that just has a huge warhead and a fuel tank with a motor. If you can build those stupid Delta-Vs by the bucketloads missles seem kinda cheap in comparison. Plus you would use them as a last resort. I mean the targeting mechanism for even simple missles that just follow a data stream by the firing ship cant be that much more epxensive than a few Delta-Vs. And if a salvo of about 30 of those hits, its gonna be more effective than throwing away yet another squadron of Delta and double Deltas. What gets you a hyperion dead faster? 15 AD of AP,TD missles or 4 bases of double Deltas?

I know where i would spend my money.

The raider campaign is kinda centered around the fight of raiders to get away with the most loot they can.

And damn you are right. A superfreighter, im sure they exist, bigger ships are just cheaper in the long run, would make perfect q-ships. Maybe even as makeshift assault ships. Like how many bulkheads does that thing have? Plus enough space for a truly terrifying carrier.

A great campaign FS2 TC for B5 actually had afreighter carry Deltas undiscovered into EA territory. Now that would be an idea. Give raiders freighters that kinda have a untouchable rule, unless they come closer than 4 inches to any other ship. Then let em have stuff like short ranged weapons 8 inches or so.

Modular ships up till now, were based on the Battlewagon, and that ship is damn good. Kinda as if to make up for the terrifyingly bad Strike Carrier, but as always, good plus bad does not equal balanced. So they were kinda overpowered if you came up with anything like that. I mean that ships has firepower nearly equaling a hyperion and more staying power to boot, not as maneuverable though.

 

[Talisinbear]

on the actual topic of which should be next fleet, be nice to see a concept drawing or two for some ships for the different choices, You have to think one of the game designers is already doodling some drawings.

hope better than last release, the drakh in fluff sounded great, but the bloated and squished slugs for ships are terrible. Strange too since most ships in the line are pretty good, with Centauri the most diverse and good top to bottom in my opinion (looks wise)

Talisinbear