Which attribute is least useful in the d20 Conan game?

[Supplement Four]

All six attributes in d20 Conan are useful. My question to you is: Of all six stats, which would you say is the least useful?

You can only pick one.

It doesn't matter which type of character you're playing--we're talking in general terms here (not specifics).

Which stat, on average, is most likely to be your lowest score?

 

[Vortigern]

I think conan massive damage rules make hitpoints, beyond those necessary to survive one non-massive damage hit or two, rather redundant... or in other terms rather redundant. Fortitude saves are nice, but... a plus one or two on them isn't so very grand in the scheme of things.

 

[Supplement Four]

I think conan massive damage rules make hitpoints, beyond those necessary to survive one non-massive damage hit or two, rather redundant... or in other terms rather redundant. Fortitude saves are nice, but... a plus one or two on them isn't so very grand in the scheme of things.

This is not something I'm familiar with yet as I'm running a 1st level game. But...

How often does the massive damage rule come into play in the later levels?

I mean, with no magical weapons, I don't see any way of increasing damage except rolling a natural 20.

How do higher level character inflict 20+ points of damage?

 

[flatscan]

How often does the massive damage rule come into play in the later levels?

Don't know how often it will come up with your allowed attribute creation systems, but in my game it mainly comes from PCs with a high Str bonus, wielding Great Swords (damage potential of 18 pts from the weapon alone), and Power Attack (maxed at the current character BAB, which for right now is +5).

So it comes up fairly often. :evil:

 

[Supplement Four]

How often does the massive damage rule come into play in the later levels?

Don't know how often it will come up with your allowed attribute creation systems, but in my game it mainly comes from PCs with a high Str bonus, wielding Great Swords (damage potential of 18 pts from the weapon alone), and Power Attack (maxed at the current character BAB, which for right now is +5).

Yet another reason for me not to use Heroic chargen, then! :shock:

I really don't think the game was designed for Heroic chargen, as it is a variant rule, and it seems little issues like this pop up.

If you use standard chargen (especially the version of standard chargen where there is no arrangement to taste), then Massive Damage is a lot less likely to occur (from what I've seen of the game). Massive Damage will be the exception, not the rule.

 

[Ichabod]

STR 16, bardiche, Power Attack -3/+6 (3rd level fighter, 4th level multiclass)

d8+d10+5+6 - average 21 pts. of damage

STR 8, shortsword, Sneak Attack +4d8 (5th level thief)

d8-1+4d8 - average 21.5 pts. of damage

If you aren't dealing massive damage on average in every hit by around 6th level, one hopes you are playing a scholar.

BTW, lots of people like the easy massive damage as it makes combat flashy as opposed to a tedious grind.

In my view, the rules do break pretty easily, especially as levels go up and PCs start fighting stuff that does massive damage as PCs can't up Fortitude saves fast enough to counteract the ease of MD and the results of failing on MDS can be situationally horrendous. Then, OTOH, it can be hard on GMs to come up with suitable opposition as it's boring as hell to watch the party rip through supposedly badass stuff without any meaningful effort. AFAICT, it's really hard to balance combats in Conan. Reminds me of the HeroQuest boardgame where the heroes needed to win most of the fights without too much attrition, but where it was kind of dull for Zargon to watch the party annihilate encounters without hardly any loss of resources.

 

[Supplement Four]

STR 16, bardiche, Power Attack -3/+6 (3rd level fighter, 4th level multiclass)

d8+d10+5+6 - average 21 pts. of damage

Bardiche does d8+d10 (avg. 9)

+3 STR (avg. 12)

+6 Power Attack (avg. 18).

That's an average 18, but it's close to 20. So, I see your point.

I wouldn't count sneak attacks because, like critical hits when rolling a natural 20, they only happen every so often (I see it's more difficult to perform a sneak attack in this game than it is in regular D&D...or the D&D that I remember from two decades ago).

So, massive damage becomes a contender with two handed weapons only, around level 7 or so.

That's not so surprising to me. If you read the Overview on page 12 of Conan 2E, it basically says that the game is designed for character levels 10 and below. Level 12 or higher is supposed to be very rare.[/quote]

 

[Supplement Four]

I voted for CHR.

My reasoning.

STR is important for combat in this combat heavy game (attack and damage).

DEX is important for ranged weapons, finesse fighting, initiative, and Reflex Saves.

CON is important for extra hit points and Fort Saves.

INT is important for the number of skills the character has.

WIS is important for Wil Saves.

CHR is important for some skills (as are all the other stats) and some relationship based rolls (which is many times governed by role playing).


All are important. But, the vast majority of the time, I would put my lowest score in CHR before anything else.

 

[Ichabod]

STR 16, bardiche, Power Attack -3/+6 (3rd level fighter, 4th level multiclass)

d8+d10+5+6 - average 21 pts. of damage

Bardiche does d8+d10 (avg. 9)

+3 STR (avg. 12)

+6 Power Attack (avg. 18).

That's an average 18, but it's close to 20. So, I see your point.

You're the second person who has "corrected" my numbers in recent threads who is simply wrong about your math.

d8 - 4.5 ave
d10 - 5.5 ave
Two-handed weapon is 1.5x STR bonus - 1.5x3 = 5.

I wouldn't count sneak attacks because, like critical hits when rolling a natural 20, they only happen every so often (I see it's more difficult to perform a sneak attack in this game than it is in regular D&D...or the D&D that I remember from two decades ago).

Sneak Attack is incredibly easy to pull off in Conan assuming the GM doesn't keep throwing stuff immune to crits against the party. It's much easier than in D&D where numerous undead, constructs, and the like run around ... at least in theory.

 

[Supplement Four]

d8 - 4.5 ave
d10 - 5.5 ave

You're wrong there. It's 4 and 5 average. You're thinking that two dice are involved.

Average means total divided by two.

Of course, "average" means different things, and there are different ways to "average" a total.

You're probably using this method: {1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8} / 8 = 4.5

Two-handed weapon is 1.5x STR bonus - 1.5x3 = 5.

But, you're right here. I stand corrected.

Sneak Attack is incredibly easy to pull off in Conan assuming the GM doesn't keep throwing stuff immune to crits against the party.

Sneak attacks can only be performed when the target is flat footed or flanked. How is that easy to pull off?

I can see the PCs agreeing to flank targets in order to allow a comrade to pull off a sneak attack when ever possible, but this can't always be the case--as when the PCs are outnumbered (which is probably often).

 

[Malcadon]

d8 - 4.5 ave
d10 - 5.5 ave

You're wrong there. It's 4 and 5 average. You're thinking that two dice are involved.

Average means total divided by two.

Of course, "average" means different things, and there are different ways to "average" a total.

You're probably using this method: {1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8} / 8 = 4.5

Ichabod is correct, the average is 10, not 9.

All are important. But, the vast majority of the time, I would put my lowest score in CHR before anything else.

Dump states should be done on a case-by-case basis. By 'case', I mean character concept and/or archetype. A warrior-type would likely use Int and Cha as dump stats, and a roguish-type would likely use Str and Con as dump stats. Dump states should never be a general thing, as they each have their importance beyond just the game mechanics. As any old-timer would tell you, "Let the rules serve you, but not rule you!"

This reminds me of how people use the Luck (from Interlock) and Psyche (from SilCORE) scores as dump states in other games. In both cases, they are seen as a little to abstract for the gritty settings that run on both systems. Some players would keep such scores really low to benefit other stats (an unfortunate cliché with point-based systems) because such stats have little or no effect on the rules, and ignorant to how that would really effect their PCs. To their surprise, nothing goes right for them, misfortune follows their character like a magnet, and all they can think is that the GM is out to get them (when it really their own undoing). So they should never be underestimated.

 

[rabindranath72]

d8 - 4.5 ave
d10 - 5.5 ave

You're wrong there. It's 4 and 5 average. You're thinking that two dice are involved.

Average means total divided by two.

Of course, "average" means different things, and there are different ways to "average" a total.

You're probably using this method: {1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 + 7 + 8} / 8 = 4.5

?! If you sum two dice (two random variables), the expected value (or average) of the sum is the sum of the expected values (or averages). 4.5+5.5=10. Then you can add constants (which are degenerate random variables) whose expected value is the value itself.
That's the Central Limit Theorem, and there are not other ways to calculate the expected value (or average).

 

[rabindranath72]

All are important. But, the vast majority of the time, I would put my lowest score in CHR before anything else.

That's why I said it is a "fault/feature" of your games. At my table you would be quite disadvantaged in choosing "by default" CHR as a dump stat.

 

[kintire]

In fact, the question is meaningless without knowing the class. If you're a toe to toe melee combatant, dump Int or Wis. Probably Int, unless you have the feats for Iron Will. If you are a finesse light melee, dump Str. If you are a scholar, Dump Str. Most character classes can afford to overlook Con, although you don't want it below 10.

Yet another reason for me not to use Heroic chargen, then!

I really don't think the game was designed for Heroic chargen, as it is a variant rule, and it seems little issues like this pop up.

Its not an issue. The game is supposed to have lots of massive damage saves, although I don't use them myself.

I wouldn't count sneak attacks because, like critical hits when rolling a natural 20, they only happen every so often (I see it's more difficult to perform a sneak attack in this game than it is in regular D&D...or the D&D that I remember from two decades ago).

Err... what?

Sneak attacks are far far easier to perform than old style backstabs.

Sneak attacks can only be performed when the target is flat footed or flanked. How is that easy to pull off?

I can see the PCs agreeing to flank targets in order to allow a comrade to pull off a sneak attack when ever possible, but this can't always be the case--as when the PCs are outnumbered (which is probably often).

Flanking requires two PCs to pull off. Enemy numbers are of no importance. And any sneak attacker worth his salt will have Improved Feint, which will allow him to render his attacker flatfooted with a successful Bluff check.

So, good Bluff vital for a sneak attacker. You'll want lots of ranks in it, and a high Cha...

 

[Hervé]

Sup4 wrote:

How often does the massive damage rule come into play in the later levels? I mean, with no magical weapons, I don't see any way of increasing damage except rolling a natural 20.

Don't forget Ability Increases. By level ten, a character might have added up to 4 point to his Strength score. Combined with damage boost feats as Power Attack and 2 handed weapons, Massive Damage can happen pretty quickly.

 

[LilithsThrall]

You're wrong there. It's 4 and 5 average. You're thinking that two dice are involved.

Average means total divided by two.

Of course, "average" means different things, and there are different ways to "average" a total.

Let me try to clear this up for you.
Average does not mean total divided by two. It means (upper bound - lower bound)/number of dice
So, since a d8 has a max value (upper bound) of 8 and a min value (lower bound) of 1, the average on a d8 is (8+1)/2 = 4.5
2d8 has an upper bound of 16 and a lower bound of 2 so (16+2)/2 = 9.
But this only works because there is a uniform distribution on each die (each side of the die has an equal chance of being rolled). If that's not true, the equation is a little more complicated.

 

[LilithsThrall]

I voted for CHR.

My reasoning.

STR is important for combat in this combat heavy game (attack and damage).

DEX is important for ranged weapons, finesse fighting, initiative, and Reflex Saves.

CON is important for extra hit points and Fort Saves.

INT is important for the number of skills the character has.

WIS is important for Wil Saves.

CHR is important for some skills (as are all the other stats) and some relationship based rolls (which is many times governed by role playing).


All are important. But, the vast majority of the time, I would put my lowest score in CHR before anything else.

There are combat benefits of CHR. These include buff and intricate swordplay (I think that's the name of the feat that allows you to add CHR to your parry). Bluff bonuses make sneak attack much easier to get via improved feint and intricate swordplay makes it easier to parry (thus encouraging fighters to parry attacks which increases the frequency of them counter striking).
Intimidate and the feats whcih build on it (Steely Gaze and Menacing Aura) are also combat benefits of CHR. The feat that gives a free round all to yourself at the beginning of combat (is it called "Striking Cobra"?) is yet another one iirc.
I seem to remember there being other ways CHR helps fighting, but I don't have my book available and can't remember the details.

 

[The King]

I chose Wisdom because it is the least used characteristic in sword & sorcery.
I would have prefered to choose Intelligence but this gaming system makes it the most important thing due to skill points bonus (how silly when you have thus skill points unrelated to INT).

 

[Teriudin]

Wisdom, clearly, though CON is a close second.

Str + Dex are HUGE in combat.

Int gets skills, which are very useful, especially since it gets cross class skills at full value.

Cha has some uses in combat with feats, and is REALLY useful for your face classes, nobles and temptresses. Since roleplay/intrigue encounters are roughly 50% of my DM's, someone needs to be a good CHA guy(or gal).

Con is pretty weak, I'll give you that. Very few useful skills, and hp's are trivial at times. However, since it lets you heal a bit faster, it has uses when your DM isn't allowing long periods of rest. Fort saves are fairly common (poisons and Massive Death, among other things).

Wis is the weakest, since Will saves are boosted by Codes of Honour, and the most common will save, Terror, can be overcome with a fate point. Sure, spot and listen are wis based, but not worth boosting WIS for.

 

[Vortigern]

Wisdom? ...

My scholar instincts and crying out in agony. :wink: