Where does it stop being Traveller?

[sideranautae]

In my professional opinion

Your a professional RPGer?

Cartographer.... No, Geographer, which entails a whole more science than just generating maps, but maps are a huge part of our output too.....

So, that makes you an expert on what is best and most fun for an RPG? You aren't making sense with your answer.

 

[Infojunky]

So, that makes you an expert on what is best and most fun for an RPG? You aren't making sense with your answer.

No just lots of experience with generating and evaluating maps plus lots of actually playing the game. I'll leave the quibbling about needless in-game minutiae as fun to you.

 

[dragoner]

2300 did a good job introducing 3D mapping but the big problem is the non-analog nature of Jump as you puddle jump around the galaxy rather than float across as with stutterwarp. Jump routes are often less accessible with the nature of 3D distances. Alpha Centauri is actually 1.43 PC and would be inaccessible to Earth's first Jump ship.

You would need to create solar system clusters more tightly packed to insure Jump travel. All that said, one doesn't need an actual map other than game color, just a list with XYZ coordinates and a calculator or a spreadsheet as I did that you choose routes from in 1-6 PC increments. OR you use the Traveller alternate warp drive and 3d map travel is a breeze. It's a more work but doable as a viable Traveller alternate.

At one point I had an idea of using the a 3D map, like http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/ (2300's were a bit wonky) and adapting Traveller straight into it, with say the Earth being TL14, Alpha Centauri TL15 etc., like an Imperium of man in the year 2300. Too much work though, reinvent the wheel, and nobody would play it probably. I have years of work in my own Traveller universe. You could probably get away with making jump 1.5 or 2 parsecs, and that would work.

 

[Reynard]

I actually mapped out the near stars to Sol out to three parsecs:

https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/MGT-Aids/files/MONGOOSE%20TRAVELLER%20specific/SETTINGS%20%26%20SECTORS/

When I saw the Jump flaw for real space I fudged the Jumps by saying the distance actually extends to full distance of a target hex rather than center to center. Jumps worked again for 3D.

 

[dragoner]

You have to belong to the group to see it. Thinking, if you made the jumps 1 = 1.5, 2= 3, 3 = 6, 4 =12, 5 = 24, and 6 = 48; you could have the out to 250ly sphere settled easily.

 

[Reynard]

Slightly more complex so it didn't get too... forgiving. You measure center to center for each Jump then add half a parsec more. In other words, you get the entire hex to Jump to rather than center or less. I have it listed as 1.5, 3, 4.5, 6, 7.5 and 9. This was done to rectify the Sol - Alpha Centauri issue that a J1 actually can't cross the distance in real space while, in the Traveller Universe, the distance is exactly 1 parsec. Terrans would never have left Earth.

For the other post concerning the 'possibility' of a warp ship, I used the same star distance data but substituted the alternative Traveller warp drive and fission power and there's no need to play the numbers. Thank you Mongoose! That's how I created the 5 month itinerary between 8 local real stars and the return to Sol.

 

[dragoner]

Interesting the decimal version, I considered that. Warp not so much, because I don't want all battles fought at warp, jump is easy enough. With the higher jump numbers, I can do high liners, ships that can really move.

 

[Cutter]

So where does it stop being Traveller for y'all?

About 1993 :mrgreen:

 

[Reynard]

Dragoner, check the alternative drives in the Core Book. Warp drive in Traveller isn't Star Trek warp. With Jump drives, you drop out of real space real space for a week then reappear at your destination. Traveller Warp drive has the ship travel to a destination in real space with the ability to stop and change direction at any time. The drive number is velocity, how far you can travel in a week, and you travel as far as your fuel lets you.

For a Traveller campaign using 3D mapping, it can be a lot easier to get about and you still have limitations imposed by the drives.

 

[dragoner]

2300's warp you fight at warp, iirc, all ship's missiles are warp missiles, and all effective warships.

I already have a good deal going with jump using false vacuum: http://dragonersdomain.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3597#p3597

 

[Infojunky]

So do Warp Drives and Hyperspace drives change the setting too much?

What other Game materials that aren't specifically Traveller do you commonly use? I am real fond the first 3 editions of GURPs Space. In fact I have uses a number of Gurps science fiction products over the years.... I used to use bits of Space Opera as well.

 

[sideranautae]

So do Warp Drives and Hyperspace drives change the setting too much?

I believe so. For the Warp drive it is speed AND normal space, FTL travel. For Hyperspace it is the speed. Both have broad change implications for an "average" Trav universe.

 

[Reynard]

I don't think so. You have more flexibility travelling in Warp but at twice the fuel cost and the fuel use determines range. The Hyper space drive is huge but your speed in hyperspace depends on the rating of the Maneuver drive (1 PC per day per Maneuver rating.) You still moving in a straight line like Jump but faster. It's a balance and gives Traveller a couple other choices, a little touch Star Trek and a touch Babylon.

 

[sideranautae]

I don't think so. You have more flexibility travelling in Warp but at twice the fuel cost and the fuel use determines range. The Hyper space drive is huge but your speed in hyperspace depends on the rating of the Maneuver drive (1 PC per day per Maneuver rating.) You still moving in a straight line like Jump but faster. It's a balance and gives Traveller a couple other choices, a little touch Star Trek and a touch Babylon.

It's not the fuel consumption that is the change with warp that is problematic. It is the real space aspect. The change in interstellar SIGINT alone would be HUGE. The fast, deep penetration ability from Hyperdrives would greatly chance the military composition, strat and tactics. Changing the cost of defense and the ability to hold systems.

 

[dragoner]

So do Warp Drives and Hyperspace drives change the setting too much?

What other Game materials that aren't specifically Traveller do you commonly use? I am real fond the first 3 editions of GURPs Space. In fact I have uses a number of Gurps science fiction products over the years.... I used to use bits of Space Opera as well.

I haven't paid too much attention to the warp drives in mongoose, most of my thinking about an ATU ended in the 90's, could have been good, but too much work. I used 2300, Space Opera, and bits from other stuff Shatterzone, Star Frontiers, and even Gamma World. We would up playing Rifts, and I made a whole Phase World/Mechanoids campaign that lasted until about ten years ago. I own GURPS Humaniti, that's it for GURPS. My involvement with SJG now is with Munchkin, and before with TFT, Ogre/GEV, and Car Wars.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

Of course there is always 'Traveller Babylon 5' with it's jump gates as another option too.

 

[simonh]

So do Warp Drives and Hyperspace drives change the setting too much?

I believe so. For the Warp drive it is speed AND normal space, FTL travel. For Hyperspace it is the speed. Both have broad change implications for an "average" Trav universe.

I agree that significantly different FTL systems make the setting too difefrent from 'standard traveller' to really be a Traveller setting the way most people understand it. At that point you would need to qualify it by saying "Traveller but with warp drive" to avoid confusion whereas if you were using a slightly modified version of character generation or the task system you might not need to mention that up front. After all we all probably use some minor house rules her and there. However if you're still mostly the same Traveller game mechanics then I think you're still playing Traveller the game.

Very often in these discussions I see people talking past each other because one person is talking about or emphasising Traveller the game system and another is talking about Traveller the setting (either the OTU in particular, or vanilla Traveller settings with OTU-like background assumptions).

So I think it's useful to distinguish between 'rules' like jump drive mechanics that only really affect themselves and the setting, and don't actualy interface at all with the rest of the game mechanics of the roleplaying game side of things, and changes to the roleplaying game mechanics, if you see the distinction I'm trying to make.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Reynard]

Posts describing the use of the alternate FTL systems so far have been very obvious as to what drive is being focused on. I wish I could say the same for many posts with homebrews and rules spoken as if they are official rules. Extremely confusing when your only warning is "Well, it should be this way!"

I don't believe the Warp and Hyperspace rules unbalance the system with each given limitations to their designs. Yes, they work in ways very unlike Jump and that's the point yet they still don't make stellar travel any easier. Systems are still islands in the black sea. Communications are still by the speed of a ship. Warp merely makes systems more accessible and Hyperspace make travel faster. Each is part of alternate (parallel) Traveller universe so there's no competition. Each is still a Traveller universe that all the rules in the books work the same EXCEPT star travel.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I think, to get technical, things fall into the following categories
A) you use only licensed Traveller rules books with no changes and it is 100% Traveller. Perhaps with a possible list of optional elements that are or are not utilized like iron man or point buy chargen, knockout blow, alternate ship drives, with supplements "x-y", without books "a and c" and so on...
B) you use only licensed Traveller rules books with personal changes and it is Traveller with house rules. Is homebrewed Traveller the right term?
C) you use licensed Traveller rules books and rules from other game systems too and it is a Traveller hybrid
D) a combination of B and C. A homebrewed Traveller hybrid.
E) the only way a game could 100% be considered not to be traveller is if no part of any licensed Traveller rule book is used

For everything in between A and E, everybody has their own opinions as to what does or doesn't feel like Traveller.

It's just a matter of opinion, like what someones favorite color is. Just because you don't agree with someone and have a different opinion doesn't mean anyone is wrong.

EDIT: A) could be Traveller 5, MGT, Hero Traveller and so on. It also might include those Traveller games which use parts of multiple Traveller versions. But on this publishers own website forums I assume if no qualifiers are mentioned we are discussing a game that is 100% Mongoose Traveller.

 

[Reynard]

"C) you use licensed Traveller rules books and rules from other game systems too and it is a Traveller hybrid"

To me, that's what has made Traveller what it is since day one. I've seen official and unofficial printed adventures that were not so subtle (if you saw the source used) takes on quite a few movies from ALIEN to Rabid to Warning Sign, naming a few. In Traveller's early days we created the contemporary of Battlestar Galactic. I remember possibly in a JTAS issue that has a crude version of a light sword attached to a powerpack. Traveller core makes it very possible to import media and game inspirations and I feel that was always the intent.