When does a high tech world appear primitive?

Tom Kalbfus

Mongoose
What if there was a world that exceeded Tech Level 17, but appeared to most outside observers to be tech level 1? What if the inhabitants of this world worshipped what they claimed to be a god, and that "god" gave some of them powers? the Scout survey can't seem to locate this being that appears to give the locals these powers, some of these powers have to do with healing, curing diseases and other things by mysterious means, since they can't locate who is doing this, they conclude that somewhere on this planet is a being or beings operating at a tech level that defies explanation or analysis. the powers these people have do seem to be localized to the planet, if taken off the planet, the locals who have these powers quickly lose them, only to be regained once they are returned to the planet. Something or some very intelligent and highly advanced is on this planet and the Imperium can't locate it. What do you think the Imperium would do if they found a planet like this?
 
What you are asking for sounds a lot like a guideline for applying Clarke's Law. The threshold for "sufficiently advanced technology" is a moving target, and TL17 may not be high enough relative to a TL15 audience.
 
GypsyComet said:
What you are asking for sounds a lot like a guideline for applying Clarke's Law. The threshold for "sufficiently advanced technology" is a moving target, and TL17 may not be high enough relative to a TL15 audience.
Probably not TL17+ is what I meant, the higher tech levels are not so well defined.
 
By TL 9 all heavy industry can be taken off world if desired.

Use asteroid bases and orbital factories to make industrial stuff and use the wealth to clean up the environment and return the world below to a more arboreal state. This stuff can be in the outer system so not immediately obvious to the scout team.

On-world energy needs can probably be met by off-world power sats and renewables on-world.

The big question is if people can give up their addiction to electronic entertainment and communication, otherwise that is always going to be a dead give away of the high TL, not to mention that the space based industry will be spotted eventually.
 
Tom Kalbfus said:
What if there was a world that exceeded Tech Level 17, but appeared to most outside observers to be tech level 1?
One way to get this would be highly advanced biotechnology which uses
genetically modified living organisms instead of machines. The special po-
wers of the world's inhabitants could actually be the work of living symbi-
onts which are unable to survive when separated from the world's ecolo-
gical network.
 
rust said:
One way to get this would be highly advanced biotechnology which uses
genetically modified living organisms instead of machines. The special po-
wers of the world's inhabitants could actually be the work of living symbi-
onts which are unable to survive when separated from the world's ecolo-
gical network.

Sounds a bit like The Four Lords of the Dimaond by Jack L. Chalker.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Lords_of_the_Diamond

Though in this case the host dies as well when they go to far from the world.
 
Tom Kalbfus said:
What if there was a world that exceeded Tech Level 17, but appeared to most outside observers to be tech level 1?
Are all the materials low tech in appearance? Only way I could see a casual observer of misconceiving. What are the homes made of? What are their clothes made of? Anyone with a more analytical eye might realize the materials are not natural or that certain items are perfect in shape or very much identical from one location to another indicating a higher level of manufacturing and mass production.

What do they eat and how is it grown, harvested, transported to market?

I may be wrong, but is what you are thinking of is a low tech society that somehow has the benefit of some very high tech magical/god like capabilities (as perceived by them and others that may not understand it)?

It sounds pretty limited in scope as to how much of their lives is actually high tech (observed or not). Farming, mining, manufacturing, construction, medical, transportation... In such a case where much is low tech and just a few things are high tech, even knowing fully what is going on, I might still be inclined to rate them as low tech.
 
Even on our Earth today, there are people who use technology to create a back to the earth and past lifestyle. Too often we believe the future must be huge angled steel and concrete and sleek, shiny cars but it's just as easy to design high tech transparently into low tech architecture styles. With sufficient high tech and social planning, production is in the background. Small, quiet communities in rural environments become physically and mentally therapeutic. Communication and entertainment devices hide on the body or in the house. Transports become clean and efficient and take on shapes and textures more organic and pleasing. The advent of Fusion Plus should make the ecology park and wilderness friendly. High tech should make living 'simply' much easier and attractive.
 
Tom Kalbfus said:
What do you think the Imperium would do if they found a planet like this?

The same thing the Imperium always does.

If the Scouts find the world, they'll probably Red Zone James Cameron's Pandora to allow the inhabitants to be left alone.

If the Navy finds the world, they'll probably Red Zone James Cameron's Avatar after they do something and seriously tick the natives off.

If the Megacorps find the world, they'll see if they can't turn a buck from the entire thing, and if they can't they'll ignore it.
 
Reynard said:
Too often we believe the future must be huge angled steel and concrete and sleek, shiny cars but it's just as easy to design high tech transparently into low tech architecture styles.
No matter how "low tech" one wants to make it in appearance, even going to the point of making every piece custom and imprecise so that they do not look mass produced, there is still the issue of manufacturing, assembly, transport, sales, and construction. Also, is the society purposely lying and trying to do everything they can to fool outsiders?

To a researcher, certain things would be observed. Like I said before
What do they eat and how is it grown, harvested, transported to market?
Watching a home being built, do they cut down trees or otherwise gather resources manually? Build with primitive tools? It is one thing to make things appear "antique" but how do you simulate low tech in every aspect of society from tools to materials to transportation of goods to, well, everything, without actually being low tech - where is the high tech?

Is it really a high tech society if you use a horse drawn plow and hand pick the goods then use a TL17 antigrav cart (in all appearances it looks low tech) that floats but still is pulled by a horse to transport goods to market?
 
I could see it functioning based upon a radical shift in the paradigm of how the people function.

Looking backwards for inspiration, everything about the lifestyle of a Classic Greek would be incomprehensible to a Hunter-Gatherer. The basic values and attitudes for what constitutes work and time and family and wealth are completely different ... although there would be little chance of the Hunter-gatherer mistaking Greek technology for something more primitive that his own technology ... but they might view the cultural values as 'barbaric'.

The life of an industrial factory worker viewed by a medieval agrarian villager might be incomprehensible, but again not "technologically primitive".

So taking these examples from the past and looking forward, there is an opportunity for the 'value' of a culture to shift away from the material to the more insubstantial. Look at e-commerce compared to brick-and-mortar retail and you can see some of the shift happening today. Now fast forward to some hypothetical TL 14 world where less than 1% of the population is engaged in the production of food, clothing, shelter or any other physical "stuff". Over 99% of the population does something other than what we would define as 'work'. Traveller Technology suggests that holography and neural interfaces have advanced to the point where the material world may be less "real" than the virtual world that drives their culture and wealth and absorbs their creative energies. Still not primitive to a TL 8 observer, but unmistakably alien.

So let's postulate a next step where the entire world is one large Star Trek holodeck-replicator. Every material need is just a thought or word away from being reality and the environment is continually morphing to meet your needs, wants and moods. Stuff has no value because it has no permanent reality. Food, clothing, shelter and manufacturing occupy none of your time, energy or thoughts ... they are a non-issue. So what replaces them? What defines individuality, purpose, social identity?

The TL 14 VR HoloArtist who dedicates his life to the creation of new 'experiences', the defining of new 'senses' and the exploration of new forms of thought and communication ... the cutting edge superstar of TL 14 virtual culture ... might be equipped to understand and communicate (like the Hunter-gatherer in Ancient Greece) with this new post-reality advanced culture. However, he would have no reason or inclination to leave the TL14 virtual world that is the center of his existence and identity to travel to another world.

That leaves the TL 11 pre-VR spacer to attempt to interpret the advanced-primitive society that holds none of his material values because even the concept of scarcity or want is unimaginable to them.

It is like the Hunter-gatherer attempting to understand a genetics research lab ... how can you even begin to explain what it is that you are doing?
 
I don't see why the trappings of a simple life need be construed as lying. Higher tech should make having an organic environment much easier by hiding the tech. Why not automated farms and manufacturing facilities plus transport systems that don't stand out. Architecture doesn't have to be dull and sterile to be functional. The only 'lie' is wanting a lifestyle that fits in with the world without being glaring and destructive. Not every society wants a forest of mile high glass towers and huge bulking smoke spewing factories or choked off freeways. We see this here and there on 21st century Earth. Imagine what could be done with TL 17 or even TL 12.
 
Reynard said:
I don't see why the trappings of a simple life need be construed as lying.
Lying as in a researcher or just a curious observer asks, how is your food produced or how do you construct your buildings or purify your water or... Do they reveal the high tech that is operating behind the scenes or lie?

Trappings are just outward signs. Where is everything else?

There seams to be an assumption that if high tech is not in your face present that one might assume a lack of high tech and thus a low tech society. That may be true on the surface - I don't disagree with a small trade ship stopping and perhaps making such an assumption. But the discussion was about a scout survey of such a world. I'd think trained people would be able to observe the lack of actual low tech workings making things happen. No people tending fields. No manual labor making baskets, cloths, and everything else. No horses or river rafts transporting goods. Whatever - I'm not the scout expert. Do you get my point though? If the people go so far as to have a simplistic life where they actually tend the fields and make their cloths and transport goods in low tech ways then, well, they really are low tech, no? Just because it's by choice, does it matter?

It's easy to observe and understand lower level tech and if you don't see it in action, just in appearance, those scouts would be scratching their head and saying there must be some high tech behind this if there is no low tech production, construction, farms and so on. Also the tech must be high enough that it uses alternatives that are incomprehensible and can not be picked up on heat, electromagnetic and other sensors or be designed to purposely hide the traces of it's use.
 
Just had a thought. Travellers are constantly getting into trouble. When armed and armored outsiders start causing mischief what do the locals do, use clubs and stones?
 
Tom Kalbfus said:
What do you think the Imperium would do if they found a planet like this?
I'm not familiar with the different time periods and settings of Traveller. From the year 1105 setting provided by Mongoose, My understanding is that the Imperium is well aware of what is inside their borders so I'm not sure how something like this would be newly found. Not saying it is impossible, just "You got some ‘splainin’ to do!" - I Love Lucy reference for those who didn't get it.

Outside the Imperium? Well, what the Imperium might do would certainly vary based on the details of the setting where such world is found.
 
CosmicGamer said:
Tom Kalbfus said:
What if there was a world that exceeded Tech Level 17, but appeared to most outside observers to be tech level 1?
Are all the materials low tech in appearance? Only way I could see a casual observer of misconceiving. What are the homes made of? What are their clothes made of? Anyone with a more analytical eye might realize the materials are not natural or that certain items are perfect in shape or very much identical from one location to another indicating a higher level of manufacturing and mass production.

What do they eat and how is it grown, harvested, transported to market?

I may be wrong, but is what you are thinking of is a low tech society that somehow has the benefit of some very high tech magical/god like capabilities (as perceived by them and others that may not understand it)?

It sounds pretty limited in scope as to how much of their lives is actually high tech (observed or not). Farming, mining, manufacturing, construction, medical, transportation... In such a case where much is low tech and just a few things are high tech, even knowing fully what is going on, I might still be inclined to rate them as low tech.

Think of it this way, why do people walk when they have a car? Why are their people jogging in Manhattan when their are cars, trains, and buses that can take them faster than their feet can walk or run?
 
This is the scenario I was thinking of. Lets say this happened in the Traveller Timeline Astronomers in the 21st century discover two habitable planets orbiting Alpha Centauri, in 2088 when the first Jump Drive is invented, they go there to find only one habitable planet, lets say orbiting the orange star Alpha Centauri B, orbiting the yellow more sunlike star, there is no planet where the telescope detected one. A scout ship is sent around the system, it finds rock balls, a poisonous planet much like Venus, and some asteroids, but the planet that was detected from the Solar System is not anywhere to be found. Thousands of years pass, it is now the classic Traveller era, the famous missing planet is chalked up to instrument era, and they story passes into legend much like the Flying Dutchman, and the Bermuda Triangle. And then one day, the planet is back, no one saw it appear out of nowhere, but there it is. Various probes and satellites are checked, but no one actually saw the planet appear out of nowhere, the planet is dubbed Aurora. The Imperial Scout Service approaches the planet cautiously, they find a curiously Earthlike world of tech level 1, or so it seems. the inhabitants greet the visitors from the sky when they eventually do land. The first thought that enters the scientists mind is that the planet employed a planetscale jump drive to move the entire planet in system from somewhere else. Seismic readings are taken at the planet's surface, but the planet appears entirely natural, except for the fact that Earth life forms and Earth derived life forms suddenly entered the rock strata about 10,000 years ago, according to the fossil evidence, the early atmosphere contained less oxygen , and was quickly oxygenated over a period of about 100 years, then suddenly advanced life forms appeared, first grasses and trees, then animals and humans. Nobody knows how they got there. Ancient artifacts reveal writing in ancient Earth languages such as Ancient Egyptian, Sumerian, Ancient Greek, and even some Latin, but then the languages evolve away from those in the more recent artifacts. The most recent written languages include 1st century Latin.
 
You're saying Grandfather pinched it into a pocket dimension, terraformed it and stocked it with terrestrial life then set it back? Could be an experiment to see how Earth would react. That is so Grandfather!

Now to the original hypothesis that started the thread. I have seen it so many times on episodes of Star Trek in which the low tech inhabitants are cared for and often worship hidden technological devices from known or unknown races. The 'powers' you mention are a bit vague. Super powers? Psionic abilities. Physical abilities to survive on what should be a hostile environment? Any of those at TL 17 can be well hidden medical advances or cybernetics you would need very sophisticated instruments to observe and analyze and the devices are purposely tied to the world either as an 'invisible fence' just they way they receive power or resources. The beings may or may not exist on the planet. TL 17 is the realm of self aware machines so it may never reveal who The Masters are. This could again be an experiment or a colony. The people may be artificially bred, built and stocked for alien reasons. So far your description doesn't sound as if the people are in control in any capacity except a... religious connection to the creators. This is either the work of the ancients or some never before revealed Outsiders.
 
More like never before revealed outsider, One of twelve beings at one time worshipped by the Ancient Greeks and Romans, they had a falling out with each other and each went its own way, this one chose to make its home here. Each culture made its own myths about these beings long after they departed, so its hard to tell where the mythology left off and the reality begins. Not really gods in the modern sense or the word, but nevertheless very powerful beings, who's power is ultimately rooted in technology but was later interpreted to be magic or miracles.
Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Ares, Aphrodite, Hephaestus, Hermes, Hestia, Dionysus, they all have different portfolios, but are more indicators of their personalities, than actual powers, they come from a larger society of super beings that ultimately destroyed their civilization, these 12 were the survivors of that destruction.
Here is a scene of this being hovering above the landscape of the planet Aurora, the star Alpha Centauri B shines prominently after sunset in the background.
venus-1.jpg
 
Peter F Hamilton - "Fallen Dragon". Mega-corp invades a slightly lower tech world to asset strip it and finds itself being defeated by a small guerrilla operation using more advanced tech. Got some very relevant sections in it, but more concerned with genetic engineering than advanced hardware.
 
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