What's your goto tech?

[ottarrus]

So, I have a method of setting up my characters skill-wise, and this effects how they're equipped.
Most of the PCs that I play have at least one combat skill, one technical skill, one social skill, and one 'this is gonna save your life' skill [Survival, Vacc Suit, Medical]. This usually [but certainly not always] allows the character to be useful and/or helpful in most situations, and naturally one or two of those skills will the the job/role skill for the party.
Note that we're all effected by the novels and movies we've read or seen. There is a lot of entertainment that relies on gadgets... from James Bond to the Stainless Steel Rat. I've taken something of a semi-realistic approach with this... more Jason Bourne than James Bond.

Generally speaking, I equip these characters as follows:
- The best weapon I can afford,
- The best high-law-level option for a weapon,
- A comm unit with excellent level agent, library archive, and encryption,
- Armor that looks like clothing,
- The best combination mask I can find,
- A Go-Bag for when things get truly trake-shaped [when we go onworld, I stash the go-bag in a locker at the startown... the bad guys know to watch your ship],
-- CASH.... a minimum of 10k in hard cold non-traceable cash, often 50k if I can afford it,
-- A stun baton -- even unskilled you can put a fool down with it non-lethally,
-- A clean firearm if possible, with preference towards low ballistic signature weapons [Gauss pistols, Snub Pistols, Lasers etc.; they may make noise but you're not gonna get much of ballistic trace],
-- A clean comm for the world I'm on,
-- Clothing that is at least much lower SOC and completely different style than I usually wear, augmented with local purchase items,
-- A quickie disguise kit [hair dye, shears, etc.]... this isn't professional makeup, it's just to alter your appearance enough to spoof casual surveillance,
-- 'Black' Fabricator files to gin up a weapon and ammo ['black fab' are the unlicensed files designed to leave no memory in the fabricator file queue -- all an investigator will find is 'an item using this much material of these types was fabricated, no further details available'],
-- Duct tape and Stik-It patches.

 

[Sigtrygg]

We have knockdown rules.

Based on kinetics and non penetration.

Based on reality they are bollocks. See the law of momentum transfer.

 

[ottarrus]

Based on reality they are bollocks. See the law of momentum transfer.

ALL the Traveller combat rules have only a vague relationship with reality. A .32 or .38 Special [both rounds delivering less PSI on the target than a 9mm Para round] can put you on the ground. It depends on the hit location, stance, environment and so on -- none of which Traveller takes into account. I know this happens because I've seen it happen.
And for most purposes this is just fine. We're not playing Twilight 2000, or worse, Aftermath [anybody remember THOSE hit location tables ]. A hit success and damage roll are sufficient for better than 95% of Traveller usage. If the referee wants to increase the theater in a given combat encounter, they can do so and it doesn't need to be parsed out to the millijoule of force.
Don't get me wrong here... if you want combat in your game to be so gritty that every character has an OODA score and a PTSD Rating, have at it. But for most Traveller players, myself included, this is a little too ticky-tack.

 

[swordtart]

Bullets don't knock you back, pure hollywood.

I was not talking about knockback, I am talking about the bruising and hydrostatic shock to soft tissues from a high energy round that not being suddenly stopped or deflected by inflexible armour but instead is being absorbed by armour that deforms, and the only way it can deform is into the body wearing it.

Cloth armour at TL 10 is being described as being indistinguishable from normal clothing under normal circumstances. The description also specifically mentions bruising. The image in the CSC 2023 update doesn't look anything like armour that could ever be concealed, but that is just art.

Getting hit by a sword in flexible armour is like being hit with an iron bar when wearing no armour. You don't get cuts and won't bleed out but it still bloody hurts. The way we protect against the blunt trauma is with extra padding underneath, but that won't look like clothing under normal circumstances. Additional padding is an option and if that is taken then there will be no stun damage.

In JTAS12 they have Gel Cloth that stiffens in response to impact and I can see that also avoiding blunt trauma, but it provides much lower protection at a much higher tech level, so it seems more balanced.

 

[Arkathan]

Based on reality they are bollocks. See the law of momentum transfer.

It hurts. You reflexively twist away from the source of the pain, and may lose your balance in the process.
Knock down, not knock back.
Agreed that a 9mm projectile is going to go through you before it pushes you back ten feet (and it will never push you back ten feet)... now, with a larger caliber the bits being pushed out ahead of the fluid shock wave are an entirely different matter/splatter.

 

[Sigtrygg]

ALL the Traveller combat rules have only a vague relationship with reality.

Usually close enough to not have to worry. Remind me which previous Traveller rules has cinematic combat knockdown?

A .32 or .38 Special [both rounds delivering less PSI on the target than a 9mm Para round] can put you on the ground. It depends on the hit location, stance, environment and so on -- none of which Traveller takes into account. I know this happens because I've seen it happen.

Hence the damage variability, effect bonus etc. The reality is shot placement is usually a bigger deciding factor.

And for most purposes this is just fine. We're not playing Twilight 2000, or worse, Aftermath [anybody remember THOSE hit location tables ].

Yes, I used Aftermath as my go to game for years and used the hit location tables in Runequest, harn, and many others including Aftermath in space (I used it for Space Master)

A hit success and damage roll are sufficient for better than 95% of Traveller usage.

Completely agree.

If the referee wants to increase the theater in a given combat encounter, they can do so and it doesn't need to be parsed out to the millijoule of force.

I agree again.

Don't get me wrong here... if you want combat in your game to be so gritty that every character has an OODA score and a PTSD Rating, have at it. But for most Traveller players, myself included, this is a little too ticky-tack.

It's nothing to do with grit or crunch, it is the cinematic that I dislike.
There is no such thing as knockback for firearms, if the shooter doesn't fall over neither does the target, not from momentum transfer at any rate. If the bullet hits the brainstem then you fall down...

 

[swordtart]

How obvious are they going to be? Cloth armour is pretty obvious, add a cloth overcoat and they are going to stand out like a sore thumb, especially in the tropics.

At TL10 cloth armour is not obvious, and whether they look obvious or not isn't really the issue. If they are going to a gun fight it hardly matters. The issue is that AP ammunition becomes the entry level at even a moderate tech level and a low price point. Layered cloth is 15 times cheaper than Poly Carapace which provides less protection. Under my rule Poly Carapace is rigid and there is no blunt trauma, which is why there is a market for it. Flexible armour will stop you dying and let you find cover, but rigid armour will let you fight.

The same logic applies to say a cloth jacket over a Protec Suit. 9 points protection and probably won't register to the majority of people as anything untoward (since the "bomber" jacket conceals the Protec).

 

[Arkathan]

It's nothing to do with grit or crunch, it is the cinematic that I dislike.
There is no such thing as knockback for firearms, if the shooter doesn't fall over neither does the target, not from momentum transfer at any rate. If the bullet hits the brainstem then you fall down...

It is a knock down rule, not knock back. The movement, if any, is due to the reflexive action of the target, and a reaction to the severity of the hit.
The main mechanic in this is stealing action economy if you fail a STR check for damage exceeding 15. My in-game interpretation is that powered armor/battledress increases that threshold, exactly like the armor increases your attributes (The max END for someone in a suit that has a multiple of 3 is 45).
For the example with the cloth overcoat, the rule gives consequences to someone who is being munchy and thinks they can just walk in the open during a gun fight as if they were invincible.

 

[swordtart]

There is no such thing as knockback for firearms, if the shooter doesn't fall over neither does the target, not from momentum transfer at any rate. If the bullet hits the brainstem then you fall down...

Agree in principle, but I have seen pig carcasses shot with small calibre high velocity rifles in tests where the bullet passes right through and didn't transfer momentum. If it hit tensioned muscle however the muscle ripped apart and threw those carcasses all over the place.

Ejecta from bullets passing through can also propel limbs (or head in the case of JFK) towards the shooter (back and to the right... back and to the right).

I got stabbed in the leg once and whilst the momentum transferred was negligible (the blade penetrated less than 1 cm), I was all but crippled as it felt like I had been hit in the leg with a cricket bat. I stumbled in surprise and I also recoiled from the blade not because of momentum, but because of flinch. A punch in the gut can take you to the ground because it hurts.

Gently pushing someone's head past about 15 degrees off vertical can make them step back or topple as the body only works if its centre of gravity is over the feet.

Shooting ballistic gel is all well and good, but gel doesn't simulate everything.

 

[Condottiere]

Cloth implies flexibility.

It's not linothorax.

In the 1970s, Peter Connolly built a linothorax by gluing layers of linen cloth together and cutting them to shape.[11]

 

[ottarrus]

Cloth implies flexibility.

It's not linothorax.

In the 1970s, Peter Connolly built a linothorax by gluing layers of linen cloth together and cutting them to shape.[11]

A linothorax is a breastplate [!] made of layers of linen and a rougher, reedier papyrus material glued together to such an extent as to be rigid.
Think of it, VERY broadly speaking, as an ancient form of Kevlar. The fabrics were not lined up all nice and even warp-to-warp, weave-to-weave. They were 'cross-thatched' to provide more protection to the wearer especially to piercing damage.
Modern reconstructions using known ancient construction techniques suggest that linothorax was possibly equal to cuirboulli [thick leather boiled in fat or wax to stiffen it].
This type of armor came about due to the Greek climate [hot dry summers, with cool damp winters] and to changes in warfare, where falangists [hoplites in the phalanx, not a political ideology] were becoming more mobile and running more. In that era they were divesting themselves of bronze greaves and the lino was alternative to a heavy bronze cuirass.
For a very simple discussion and illustration on the linothorax, I refer you Osprey Warrior #27 'The Greek Hoplite 480-323 BC' by Nick Sekunda.

 

[Condottiere]

The way I see it, is, if, like chainmail, there is no penetration, the flexibility of the material would transfer the kinetic energy to the target.

Padding underneath would deal with that.

Optionally, liquid armour, that stiffens on contact.

 

[ottarrus]

The way I see it, is, if, like chainmail, there is no penetration, the flexibility of the material would transfer the kinetic energy to the target.

Padding underneath would deal with that.

Optionally, liquid armour, that stiffens on contact.

The 2300 milieu posits such armors called 'Inertial Armors'.
These are softer, lighter and more comfortable than rigid armors, and have a ballistic 'smart-gel' that is supposed to go rigid when exposed to forces in excess of a certain PSI. The back side to that is that a] they're not as protective as cerami-plas plates and the gel takes up to two minutes to relax after being struck. This has the unfortunate side effect of limiting the wearer's movement when under shellfire and/or automatic fire. The bullets don't penetrate, but the occupant can be bruised to immobility.
It's still a good addition to the OTU, though. I would think that 'diplo armor' is primarily made of this stuff. You don't want the line of your suit all buggered up with a rigid plate, right?

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Condottiere]

We have ye shotgun.

And we have a knife.

Something reminded me of the supposed reliability of the revolver over the (semi) automatic pistol.

 

[swordtart]

Gel Cloth in JTAS12 is flexible but becomes rigid on impact spreading the impact over a wider area which would reduce the blunt trauma. Gel Cloth does not give it as much protection as cloth (+5 at TL12 and +7 at TL14) and is undetectable under normal circumstances.

There is also an Armour Cloth option that provides less protection than Cloth armour but is equivalent to normal clothing. I would expect this could be layered with any of the armours that can be worn over 1KG or less armour. As a business suit of this material would cost Cr1000 (double the price of the Protec Suit) and offers a similar level of protection I am inclined to say armoured clothing of this type is undetectable under normal circumstances.

It would be nice to have some sort of consolidation of clothing costs and protections as the various mongoose supplements are widely divergent in their approach. The field catalogue prices the Uniform Bundle at Cr50 and that includes 2 sets of fatigues, a dress uniform, shoes, hat and military bling. Discrete ops uniform is a single garment with 2 points protection and cost Cr100. JTAS12 has a casual suit costing Cr200 minimum. For double that you can get that Armoured and get up to +5 protection. A full suit of Cloth armour at TL10 costs only Cr500 and gives +8 protection.

I would also prefer better protection to cost more rather than just be a function of TL. Stuff with higher capability should cost more regardless of whether you happen to be on a TL12 planet this week.

I am going to use the following hybrid rules.
A full set of casual clothing e.g. a few sets of underwear, a pair of light trousers, a couple of shirts and a light jacket is Cr50. This could equally be a jumpsuit or robes or dresses etc. Smart casual or Business clothing costs double. Formal clothing cost 5 times as much, but as stated in JTAS 12 those with high SOC will need to pay extra to preserve their status. Even their casual clothing will be high end brands.

Armoured interlining for the torso outer layer is available that requires close examination and usually disassembly to detect. At TL7 this provides +2 protection and doubles the cost. At each TL beyond it adds +1 protection and the cost rises in proportion i.e. at TL 8 it would cost 3 times as much and provides +3 protection. The highest level available is TL 10 (5 times cost and providing +5 protection). Beyond TL10 full cloth armour and Gel Cloth start to become a better option.

Clothing with armoured interlining:
Is still considered normal clothing and other armour that can be worn with normal clothing can be layered on top.
Is fully flexible and thus converts damage that it stops into stun damage rather than blocking it entirely.
If hit locations are being used the armour only protects the torso, since armoured interlining simply replaces the contour sculpting or shaping interlining that is generally found in this area anyway.

The other random grab bag of armour scattered about that talk about Ballistic Cloth can therefore be presumed to be some variant that has some rigid plates or at TL12+ will have Gel Cloth elements that will either offer better flexible protection or the same or better protection and be classed as rigid.

 

[swordtart]

We have ye shotgun.

And we have a knife.

Something reminded me of the supposed reliability of the revolver over the (semi) automatic pistol.

I think it is more a lower maintenance burden rather than intrinsic reliability*. Also with a dud round the revolver can be fired immediately again, whereas the automatic requires you to clear the dud first. Unless you are playing a very gritty game neither weapon maintenance or dud rounds are likely to come up. One of the advantages of a week in jump is that it provides plenty of time to conduct personal admin.

*Of course certain manufacturers have a poor reputation and a brand new gun that was a Friday afternoon job might have some "foibles" that need to be fixed or tuning required before the gun runs reliably, but not for a gun that you have owned some time. In MTU one of the benefits of a gun you muster out with vs. one you buy with mustering out money is you can be assumed to be very familiar with it and any issues have long been ironed out, you also have permits etc. which I consider to be legitimate reasons to own and carry it (presuming it is within the legal limits of the planet). As most weapons cost far less (or far more) than the allowed limit, it is a good reason to have one of those custom elements from CSC included form the start rather than requiring a special mission to find one.

 

[Condottiere]

I tend to think it might work for long term storage.

If the revolvers were part of a ship's locker kit.

 

[Saladman]

... the supposed reliability of the revolver over the (semi) automatic pistol.

This was and sometimes still is real, but the gap has gotten much narrower over time. It's partly legacy information from decades ago. And higher TLs in Traveller might narrow it still further.

I do wonder about firearms in space. Lubrication to avoid vacuum welding or simple jamming must be an issue; heat from rapid fire wouldn't dissipate rapidly. Conceivably revolvers might have advantages over high capacity automatics in vacuum; or TL might solve those issues also.

 

[swordtart]

This was and sometimes still is real, but the gap has gotten much narrower over time. It's partly legacy information from decades ago. And higher TLs in Traveller might narrow it still further.

I do wonder about firearms in space. Lubrication to avoid vacuum welding or simple jamming must be an issue; heat from rapid fire wouldn't dissipate rapidly. Conceivably revolvers might have advantages over high capacity automatics in vacuum; or TL might solve those issues also.

Certainly turn of the century revolvers were simple weapons compared to even the simple automatics of their time. As such they could be maintained quite easily. Modern revolvers are as full as tiny springs and fiddling metal shims as the automatics.

I suspect the main difference in the real world compared to Traveller is that they can cycle a lot more variable ammunition reliably for example a .357 magnum can use .38 special ammunition without any issue. Automatics can be finicky between manufacturers of exactly the same round as the automatic requires a certain gas pressure to move the slide. Underpowered ammunition can cause it to fail to cycle correctly and overpowered ammunition can strain the mechanism. Dirty propellants can foul more of the mechanism whereas in a revolver it is pretty much only the barrel that gets fouled.

You could house rule that revolvers can use special ammunition types easily but autopistols might only be able to load standard ammunition unless you were willing to make some kind of check for each box of variant ammunition.

The basic traveller "revolver" seems to treat the cylinder as a magazine (and this was definitely done with some cap and ball revolvers as actually reloading cylinders took too long). Alternatively the assumption may be that they use speed loaders. The Field Catalogue allows you have fixed magazines (which would represent a fixed cylinder revolver) which make a weapon marginally cheaper. It isn't such an advantage unless you are really trying to make the cheapest weapon possible.