What's your goto tech?

[swordtart]

Within the Third Imperium, Starports are Imperial Territory (managed by the (Imperial) Starport Authority - the SPA). Because of this, you can easily have a low tech world with a Starport with a higher TL than the planet it is on / in orbit of.

See the Mongoose 1st Edition book, "Starports".

I made no comment on the TL of the star port. I did not say you cannot have a low TL and a High TL star port. I said you cannot have a VERY low TL if you have a highly developed star port as a Class A port will give you a DM of +6 on the TL table. Even with a disadvantageous government type the minimum TL will be 5.

I see nothing in Starports to contradict this, but always happy for a citation, every day is a school day.

 

[Vormaerin]

We don't have any consensus on what TL means. It is, by far, the fuzziest of the deliberately fuzzy numbers used to summarize planets.

It is frequently said to be "What the world could produce on its own". But that has serious problems. An imperial resort world with zero industrial capacity but TL 15 facilities for visitors is what TL? On the other hand, what is the TL of a world where 90% of the population are primitives, but LSP has a massive robofactory complex that produces high tech industrial goods?

Or you have situations like Kinorb, where there is a class A starport, the planet is listed as TL 8 in the UWP, and it's got eco-restrictions up the yinyang so its functionally TL5 on the planet, with most people operating at horse & buggy transport.

It gets even weirder when you consider that 95%+ of the worlds in Charted Space are colonized from space, so the TL was space flight at some point. So even if they are TL 3 now for whatever reason, they aren't as technologically backward as our own medieval/rennaissance era. Like, doctors probably know to wash their hands, which European doctors didn't decide on until the 18th century. And they probably know that making pewter dishes from lead is bad, so they make them from something else. Lots of things like that would be different.



The Traveller UWP system is designed to let you create a lot of flyby worlds quickly. If you are going to actually spend any meaningful time on those worlds, you will have to do extensive fudging of some of the numbers (most frequently atmos, pop, and TL) to get to the interesting parts.

 

[Condottiere]

Planets are likely to continue to have interconnected electrical grids.

Helps when one generator breaks down, or there is a disruption, whether due to natural or unnatural causes.

Powerlines could be buried; it seems to be a matter of cost.

 

[CordwainerFish]

Also it is hard to buy that a rock with a population in the tens is producing anything.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Also it is hard to buy that a rock with a population in the tens is producing anything.

Who says it has only has 10? The UWP? We all know what the UWP is worth. Maybe there are ten people and a billion robots. Maybe they only count members of the royal family in the population number, eventhough there are millions of people on the planet. Either one could provide for lots of production with a UWP Pop of 1.

 

[Vormaerin]

Which leads to the techworld problem of whether the "thousands" of robots count as population so it can be an industrial world or if the place trades as non-industrial because there's no population except the technicians and engineers...

 

[Arkathan]

Also it is hard to buy that a rock with a population in the tens is producing anything.

How many robots are they supervising?

Edit: That's what I get for not reading every post before responding. Sorry, for the repeat, MG

 

[Vormaerin]

Anyway, I can easily see that a world with tens of population would have imports and exports. They are presumably there for a reason, though "exports" might be a bit non physical if they are there for science reasons. But they could be running mining ops, robofactories, or some other industry there.

However, there's very little likelihood that they would have a *market* and benefit from Free traders visiting. If you've got 40 folks hanging out on some rock, there's almost certainly someone sponsoring that group and those sponsors are gonna send whatever ships are necessary to handle the production and resupply of their outpost.

So Billy the Free Trader isn't gonna find cargo or passengers there, unless there's some kind of disaster going on between scheduled ship arrivals. And they aren't going to find speculative goods unless someone is illegally diverting stuff from the regular output. They just can't benefit from TONS of goods, even if they want fresh strawberries. It's not going to be in the volume necessary for even a small ship like a free trader deals in.

 

[swordtart]

Which leads to the techworld problem of whether the "thousands" of robots count as population so it can be an industrial world or if the place trades as non-industrial because there's no population except the technicians and engineers...

I would have said population needs to be sophont, but the IN trade code is very tied into the polluting 19th century industry model, and it comes with a lot of baggage. I suspect it is high population worlds non high tech worlds need to have industry as there is a ready labour source. You don't need to be IN to produce lots of high tech goods.

Population surely needs to be Sophonts and that doesn't happen with robots until the brains get very expensive and high TL.

 

[swordtart]

Anyway, I can easily see that a world with tens of population would have imports and exports. They are presumably there for a reason, though "exports" might be a bit non physical if they are there for science reasons. But they could be running mining ops, robofactories, or some other industry there.

However, there's very little likelihood that they would have a *market* and benefit from Free traders visiting. If you've got 40 folks hanging out on some rock, there's almost certainly someone sponsoring that group and those sponsors are gonna send whatever ships are necessary to handle the production and resupply of their outpost.

So Billy the Free Trader isn't gonna find cargo or passengers there, unless there's some kind of disaster going on between scheduled ship arrivals. And they aren't going to find speculative goods unless someone is illegally diverting stuff from the regular output. They just can't benefit from TONS of goods, even if they want fresh strawberries. It's not going to be in the volume necessary for even a small ship like a free trader deals in.

There is the population modifier in CRB p242 that reflects this in availability of goods.

There is also the car boot / yard sale model of any star port. Just because the population on the planet doesn't have a market, it doesn't mean other visiting ships do not create a market. The chance of finding a supplier or buyer is independent of population, it is the class of star port that determines of you can even find a trader. Captains may well trade amongst themselves. This makes particular sense if an otherwise non-productive planet is a jump away from two trade twins who are more than a jump away from each other. Rather than spending 4 weeks making a round trip a pair of ships could share that between them meeting in the middle to trade.

It is also possible in a SPA run port there will be captains who want to pay for fuel with goods or have goods seized by customs etc. All it takes is one enterprising resident to set up a trading post either in a rented space in the star port or just outside the perimeter and bingo. Once you need someone on site with an understanding of trade for any business reason, they are probably going to run things on the side. This might be one of the best ways of funding a private port. Trading without a ship can quickly become very profitable.

"Good Morning Director Krennic, here is the latest season of Rise and Fall of Sanctuary Moon you asked for, I swapped it for those "surplus" parts we spoke about". I have worked in plenty of jobs where the company supplies section is like a free market (especially for stationary).

With an outpost factory the on-site manager needs a lot of autonomy and as long as they fulfil quotas within their budgets might have discretion to source their own raw materials, and sell on surplus finished goods or side products. Tek-co is interested in supplying robot brains for the military, they don't care how their manager on asteroid-25 disposes of the packaging, they are not paying to ship it back as each ton of junk is one less ton of brains.

 

[Condottiere]

Are the robots paying income tax?

No representation, without taxation.

 

[Vormaerin]

There is the population modifier in CRB p242 that reflects this in availability of goods.

There is also the car boot / yard sale model of any star port. Just because the population on the planet doesn't have a market, it doesn't mean other visiting ships do not create a market. The chance of finding a supplier or buyer is independent of population, it is the class of star port that determines of you can even find a trader. Captains may well trade amongst themselves. This makes particular sense if an otherwise non-productive planet is a jump away from two trade twins who are more than a jump away from each other. Rather than spending 4 weeks making a round trip a pair of ships could share that between them meeting in the middle to trade.

It is also possible in a SPA run port there will be captains who want to pay for fuel with goods or have goods seized by customs etc. All it takes is one enterprising resident to set up a trading post either in a rented space in the star port or just outside the perimeter and bingo. Once you need someone on site with an understanding of trade for any business reason, they are probably going to run things on the side. This might be one of the best ways of funding a private port. Trading without a ship can quickly become very profitable.

"Good Morning Director Krennic, here is the latest season of Rise and Fall of Sanctuary Moon you asked for, I swapped it for those "surplus" parts we spoke about". I have worked in plenty of jobs where the company supplies section is like a free market (especially for stationary).

With an outpost factory the on-site manager needs a lot of autonomy and as long as they fulfil quotas within their budgets might have discretion to source their own raw materials, and sell on surplus finished goods or side products. Tek-co is interested in supplying robot brains for the military, they don't care how their manager on asteroid-25 disposes of the packaging, they are not paying to ship it back as each ton of junk is one less ton of brains.

That's theoretically possible, but it requires quite a coincidence to make a tiny pop world have enough traffic to sustain such a thing. You can always find a reason for something interesting to be the case on a one-off basis to suit your players. But as a recurring situation it becomes much harder. Those are basically patron situations you are talking about, not tramp trade, the core of which is an unscheduled visit.

It is not IMPOSSIBLE to have a tiny pop world with tramp trade. But it is highly improbable so the more often you need to do it, the more problematic it becomes. That's why I said "very little likelihood" not "No possible way".

 

[Sigtrygg]

Transient workers may not count for a world's population census.

So there could be 10+ permanent residents, thousands of migrant labourers with temporary leave to remain during their work contracts, robotic factories, resource extraction, manufacturing.

The trouble is not in the describing, it is in the ridiculous number of worlds that require such explanations

 

[MasterGwydion]

So there could be 1 permanent residents, thousands of migrant labourers with temporary leave to remain during their work contracts, robotic factories, resource extraction, manufacturing.

The trouble is not in the describing, it is in the ridiculous number of worlds that require such explanations

Agreed!

 

[Arkathan]

Transient workers may not count for a world's population census.

So there could be 1 permanent residents, thousands of migrant labourers with temporary leave to remain during their work contracts, robotic factories, resource extraction, manufacturing.

The trouble is not in the describing, it is in the ridiculous number of worlds that require such explanations

I'm picturing a corporate facility with a company store model that keeps temporary workers on site until they pay their debt (i.e. not even after they die), and are not counted as citizens for planetary stats.

 

[Condottiere]

I recall a novel/series in which the rich citizens hire non residents to act as their slaves.

After a decade, they are automatically deported, but very rich.

There's a contest, where the winner is awarded citizenship.

I thought the author was Piers Anthony, but, apparently not.

 

[boggo2300]

I recall a novel/series in which the rich citizens hire non residents to act as their slaves.

After a decade, they are automatically deported, but very rich.

There's a contest, where the winner is awarded citizenship.

I thought the author was Piers Anthony, but, apparently not.

Sounds like the UAE

or the Adept series by Piers Anthony

 

[Vormaerin]

Transient workers may not count for a world's population census.

So there could be 10+ permanent residents, thousands of migrant labourers with temporary leave to remain during their work contracts, robotic factories, resource extraction, manufacturing.

The trouble is not in the describing, it is in the ridiculous number of worlds that require such explanations

Exactly.

North Dakota, an extremely rural state in the US, is Pop 5 by itself. Mid-sized cities in the US are Pop 6 by themselves. There are Terran cities that are Pop 7.

There are lots of worlds that are less populated than the lowest population state of the US. I think there's 2 pop 1 worlds just in the Regina subsector (Pixie and Whanga). Pixie's especially funny because it has a class A starport, an Ancients site, and black site prison. And a population of "90".

I'm all for fuzzy numbers, but you shouldn't need to fudge them to the point of illegibility on a regular basis. Hawai'i's population figures don't count the large number of tourists here on any given day, but it does count the military personnel assigned to the many bases.

 

[Condottiere]

There's this statistic where the largest cities in a country tend to half themselves, at each rank.

 

[IanBruntlett]

See the Mongoose 1st Edition book, "Starports".

Here is an extended contents for the Mongoose 1st Edition "Starports" book I did a couple of years ago... In particular, it lists the sample starports provided by the book.

I'd also consider reading "Bu and Embla's Guide to Starports of the Marches". I wish it was available in hard copy.