what's wrong with grapple?
- Thread starter windman
- Start date
Well, first of all you make a melee attack vs. the defender (touch attack in standard d20)
Then you have to make a grapple check to see if you grab them (which is a different set of modifiers)
Then you have to enter into their square. If you can't you break the grapple.
Then you have to make a grapple attack to do one of several manuevers. Each special action has a paragraph of if/then type statements.
Then it's the defender's turn to take one of several actions, each of which also have a paragraph of if/then type statements (granted, most are the same as the attackers).
Then there are the host of rules for those outside the grapple, attacking in to it.
Its just a headache. My group has to look up the rules every time, and it takes from the game.
Then you have to make a grapple check to see if you grab them (which is a different set of modifiers)
Then you have to enter into their square. If you can't you break the grapple.
Then you have to make a grapple attack to do one of several manuevers. Each special action has a paragraph of if/then type statements.
Then it's the defender's turn to take one of several actions, each of which also have a paragraph of if/then type statements (granted, most are the same as the attackers).
Then there are the host of rules for those outside the grapple, attacking in to it.
Its just a headache. My group has to look up the rules every time, and it takes from the game.
Grappling works out pretty well with one caveat: you are going to lose it. Most of the time the people who grapple (or the things) have such ludicrous modifiers that you cannot get out on your own, unless you happen to be a grappler too. And NEVER forget Crushing Grip (tm): the one way to ensure that there is NO game balance. EVERYONE have 10-20 HP... no matter what the target! Just grab, do damage and go for Con damage. Suddenly every fight is over in a couple of actions. (There's a reason we've banned the feat from our game.)
Clovenhoof
Mongoose
Yeah, Grapple rules are terrible. A bunch of rolls for a single action. Annoying. I'm the GM for our group and I avoid Grapples wherever possible, which of course means I'm sacrificing one of the most powerful tools available to check on player characters, since so many monsters specialize in grappling. It's just too much of a pain.
As others have complained, we always have to look up the rules as we don't bother learning them because they are so involved and so rarely relevant to PC actions.
Sure, they are a great way to screw over PCs, but that's easy enough without bothering to understand the rules.
However, the question was asked as to how they could be better. I don't know and I'm too disinterested to try to think of something, so though I dislike the rules, I can tolerate them.
Sure, they are a great way to screw over PCs, but that's easy enough without bothering to understand the rules.
However, the question was asked as to how they could be better. I don't know and I'm too disinterested to try to think of something, so though I dislike the rules, I can tolerate them.
JohnLokiBeard
Mongoose
I’ve got no problem with grapple, but maybe I’m doing something wrong [i.e. not RAW]?
Normal combat is:
1) Roll to hit [1.1 is it a critical?]
2) Roll damage [2.1 roll save if Massive Damage]
3) Dramatic description of what the damage roll represents [your feeble blow bounces off his helm unnoticed/you cleave him to the sternum]
Grappling is:
1) Roll to hit
2) Roll opposed grapple checks
3) Dramatic description of what the result of the opposed grapple check represents [you immobilise him in a bearhug/he breaks free of your hold and kicks you in the nads]
The 'move into his square' stuff only matters if you're shunting minis around on a battlemat as if it's a chessboard, all it actually means is 'remember you're both in the same space, so if anyone else attacks one of you, you're both in danger'.
The 'If...Then...' stuff is just explicit mechanical examples of things that really ought to be included in your decriptions of what you're trying to do anyway, not a checklist that you run through every time looking for options.
Normal combat is:
1) Roll to hit [1.1 is it a critical?]
2) Roll damage [2.1 roll save if Massive Damage]
3) Dramatic description of what the damage roll represents [your feeble blow bounces off his helm unnoticed/you cleave him to the sternum]
Grappling is:
1) Roll to hit
2) Roll opposed grapple checks
3) Dramatic description of what the result of the opposed grapple check represents [you immobilise him in a bearhug/he breaks free of your hold and kicks you in the nads]
The 'move into his square' stuff only matters if you're shunting minis around on a battlemat as if it's a chessboard, all it actually means is 'remember you're both in the same space, so if anyone else attacks one of you, you're both in danger'.
The 'If...Then...' stuff is just explicit mechanical examples of things that really ought to be included in your decriptions of what you're trying to do anyway, not a checklist that you run through every time looking for options.
Clovenhoof
Mongoose
You're missing a thing or two there.
1. When you start the Grapple, you draw an Attack of Opportunity (unless you have the improved Grapple feat). That's one extra roll on the d20 (provided it fails).
Then you get the Melee attack and Opposed Check, as you described: that's 3 rolls on the d20 and 1 roll for Unarmed Strike damage.
2. Moving into the target's square is not just relevant for mini gamers. This action also provokes another AoO from any threatening opponent. So that can be an extra one or two rolls right there (which can ruin your efforts altogether).
So that's a bare minimum of _four_ d20 rolls and one damage roll, as opposed to _one_ d20 roll for a regular melee attack.
And then the fun only really starts, because all those grappling manoeuvres work more or less differently than regular manoeuvres. You take extra penalties, size modifiers work the other way, you get to use your opponent's weapon against him, and so forth.
Maybe the grappling rules work, but they are a pain you-know-where.
1. When you start the Grapple, you draw an Attack of Opportunity (unless you have the improved Grapple feat). That's one extra roll on the d20 (provided it fails).
Then you get the Melee attack and Opposed Check, as you described: that's 3 rolls on the d20 and 1 roll for Unarmed Strike damage.
2. Moving into the target's square is not just relevant for mini gamers. This action also provokes another AoO from any threatening opponent. So that can be an extra one or two rolls right there (which can ruin your efforts altogether).
So that's a bare minimum of _four_ d20 rolls and one damage roll, as opposed to _one_ d20 roll for a regular melee attack.
And then the fun only really starts, because all those grappling manoeuvres work more or less differently than regular manoeuvres. You take extra penalties, size modifiers work the other way, you get to use your opponent's weapon against him, and so forth.
Maybe the grappling rules work, but they are a pain you-know-where.
JohnLokiBeard
Mongoose
Hmm, I thought it seemed too easy, with all the pain it's causing the very experienced folk here!
I think I'll stick to my way, and assume that the AoO for the initial unarmed attack includes the move in close.
After all, it's not like I'm expecting to be raided by the Gaming Inquisition...
I think I'll stick to my way, and assume that the AoO for the initial unarmed attack includes the move in close.
After all, it's not like I'm expecting to be raided by the Gaming Inquisition...
JohnLokiBeard
Mongoose
*CRASH DOWN DOOR*
"Nobody expects the Gaming Inquisition! Our chief weapon is the surprise round! The surprise round and fear saves! Er...our two chief weapons are surprise rounds, fear saves and a fanatical devotion to Vincent Darlage! Er.. our three chief weapons are surprise rounds, fear saves, a fanatical devotion to Vincent Darlage and...among our weapons are...I'll come in again...!"
"Nobody expects the Gaming Inquisition! Our chief weapon is the surprise round! The surprise round and fear saves! Er...our two chief weapons are surprise rounds, fear saves and a fanatical devotion to Vincent Darlage! Er.. our three chief weapons are surprise rounds, fear saves, a fanatical devotion to Vincent Darlage and...among our weapons are...I'll come in again...!"
librarycharlie
Mongoose
After the third session of just going, "okay, Jeebus, let's try to find the grappling section again," I just said, to heck with it.
Grappling is simply an opposed melee attack roll, with a +4 for improved grapple (and I included a size modifier when a stygian dwarf tried to grapple). Whoever wins deals damage and decides if the two are grappling or not.
Repeat.
It's two rolls and one damage roll. The way I figure it, whoever's stronger at combat, generally speaking, will win out. Good enough for our game. Long story short, don't try to grapply a level 20 soldier with a bardiche. You'll get heavy damage to the face and wrap your arms around thin air.
Grappling is simply an opposed melee attack roll, with a +4 for improved grapple (and I included a size modifier when a stygian dwarf tried to grapple). Whoever wins deals damage and decides if the two are grappling or not.
Repeat.
It's two rolls and one damage roll. The way I figure it, whoever's stronger at combat, generally speaking, will win out. Good enough for our game. Long story short, don't try to grapply a level 20 soldier with a bardiche. You'll get heavy damage to the face and wrap your arms around thin air.
InfinityDoctor
Mongoose
I think the rules have changed slightly in the new edition, at first glance it appears that the Grapple process has just three steps:
1. Attack of Opportunity
2. Grapple
3. Maintain Grapple.
That said, having read the combat chapter properly, I'm now a bit confused. The opening paragraph of the Starting A Grapple section mentions requiring a successful melee touch attack roll, which is the old Step 2 in my 1st Edition.
None of the new steps mention that at all, just initial AoO, followed by a Grapple check, followed by Maintain. I'd assumed that the old Hold and Grab steps had been condensed into a single roll now, but that opening paragraph has thrown me. Anyone else got the Second Edition yet and care to share their opinion??
1. Attack of Opportunity
2. Grapple
3. Maintain Grapple.
That said, having read the combat chapter properly, I'm now a bit confused. The opening paragraph of the Starting A Grapple section mentions requiring a successful melee touch attack roll, which is the old Step 2 in my 1st Edition.
None of the new steps mention that at all, just initial AoO, followed by a Grapple check, followed by Maintain. I'd assumed that the old Hold and Grab steps had been condensed into a single roll now, but that opening paragraph has thrown me. Anyone else got the Second Edition yet and care to share their opinion??
Sutek
Mongoose
My main issue with the Grapple rules is that not only is it more rolls than just a plain old swat with yon trusty blade, but your opponent in the Grapple always gets to be involved in whether you succeed or not.
EH?
It's not necessarily the Conan rules for me, in other words, it's the basic premise of the Grapple rules from the get-go. You try to hit, but not as a touch attack (?), and then you oponent get's to try to hit you first with an attack of opportunity to stop you from hitting him (??), and then, if you still actually manage to hit him, you have to make an opposed check against him AGAIN (???) to see if your (wasted) strike and subsequent hit even manifest as the Grapple that you wanted so badly in the first place.
In the first place, it should be a attack against touch DV plus the targetgetting his Grapple bonus aded to that. If you hit, you've Grappled him. No AoOs. No opposed rolls, at least not until the Grappling has begun.
Heck, under the stright OGL rules you can't even wrestle your opponent to the ground. You can't throw him down, and you can't push him or toss him either - there just aren't rules for that. You can only either damage as an unarmed strike too, or use a one handed weapon. There's no way to grapple and then slit someone's throat because only others outside the grapple are allowed to Sneak Attack (if memory serves - don't have the rules in front of me and I'm going by memory).
Bottom line, I hope that options are revamped in the 2nd edition at the very least. There's gotta be more to it than 1d3, pin or escape going on here...
EH?
It's not necessarily the Conan rules for me, in other words, it's the basic premise of the Grapple rules from the get-go. You try to hit, but not as a touch attack (?), and then you oponent get's to try to hit you first with an attack of opportunity to stop you from hitting him (??), and then, if you still actually manage to hit him, you have to make an opposed check against him AGAIN (???) to see if your (wasted) strike and subsequent hit even manifest as the Grapple that you wanted so badly in the first place.
In the first place, it should be a attack against touch DV plus the targetgetting his Grapple bonus aded to that. If you hit, you've Grappled him. No AoOs. No opposed rolls, at least not until the Grappling has begun.
Heck, under the stright OGL rules you can't even wrestle your opponent to the ground. You can't throw him down, and you can't push him or toss him either - there just aren't rules for that. You can only either damage as an unarmed strike too, or use a one handed weapon. There's no way to grapple and then slit someone's throat because only others outside the grapple are allowed to Sneak Attack (if memory serves - don't have the rules in front of me and I'm going by memory).
Bottom line, I hope that options are revamped in the 2nd edition at the very least. There's gotta be more to it than 1d3, pin or escape going on here...
