What would happen if NASA invented the Jump Drive tomorrow?

[Condottiere]

At tech level eight, you have fusion plants, so the only other prototype you'd need would a grav drive, backed up with a reaction drive, just in case.

NASA would probably send a large starship, packed with everything they could think of to keep the crew safe.

The hundred tonner would be used to test the jump drive in insystem jumps.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Exactly right CosmicGamer. From a real life standpoint, the introduction of Jump Drive would not change anything in the real world. We do not have enough will or desire to really go back into space, well we Americans don't seem though. It is fun to design the vehicles though.

 

[F33D]

2) "How's the weather on the moon today?" We have had the tech for some time to go to the moon. Why are we not sending missions there?

"Those people annoy me, go drop a nuke on them!"

The head of NASA (Charles Bolde) said it best, 'President Obama told me that my "foremost" mission as the head of America's space exploration agency is to improve relations with the Muslim world.'

Does that answer your question?

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

1) "I'm selling a bridge. Want to buy it?" The original premise "A working Jump drive" doesn't seam likely to occur "tomorrow" because to occur and be proven and not be a pipe dream or theory, a ship with a functioning drive must already exist. I guess we could say it was done in secret? Somehow spending the money and sending all those supplies into space and building a ship and sending it out to the 100d limit to test it without anybody noticing...

2) "How's the weather on the moon today?" We have had the tech for some time to go to the moon. Why are we not sending missions there?

"Those people annoy me, go drop a nuke on them!"

My point is that we've had the tech to do certain things but just because we have the capability does not mean we have to use it.

Other than curiosity and research, what is the motivation to jump somewhere? Will the government fund a NASA jump mission to another star system in this extremely near future premise?

3) What next? You've had an initial series of tests between two nearby points outside the 100d limit. Likely jumping to a point out "in front" of earths orbit so the logistics of recovering the ship are simplified by the earth just orbiting to intercept the jump test ship.

I'd think trips to other systems would not be first on the agenda. Next would be trips within system. Reaching Mars seams to be popular these days.

The trip to Mars would take 21 days, 9 days to get to the 100 diameter limit, 7 days in Jump Space, 5 days to go from the 100 diameter limit to Mars. But a trip to Prometheus would take 25 days, 9 days to 100 diameters, 7 days in Jump Space, 9 days to Prometheus. The main drawback to Mars, is if you stepped outside without a space suit, you'd die! Prometheus according to Traveller has a type 8 atmosphere, it is dense but breathable. It would be cheaper to set up a base on Prometheus than on Mars. The advantage Mars has is you have continuous if not real time communication. Every time you wanted to communicate with Prometheus, you have to send a Jump Ship. The colonists would have to wait 2 to 3 weeks for a response from Earth. Lets say there is a Jump Ship orbiting Prometheus at the 100 diameter limit, lets suppose their rover broke down and they need a shipment of spare parts immediately! They send a message to the Jump Ship in orbit around Prometheus. The Jump ship receives the message and stores it, and it waits for its scheduled time to Jump, and while it does so it receives other requests and messages for Earth and stores them, at the appointed time from 1 to 6 days from the receipt of that message for spare parts the Jump Ship makes a Jump to Earth, it then downloads all the requests and messages to Mission Control, some messages are personal in nature and are passed down to e-mail and so forth, there is another Jump Ship ready to go it has collected messages from Earth from the previous week and it is just about to Jump. Mission Control acknowledges receipt of the messages, gives responses to the priority messages and indicates that the spare parts will go out on the next Jump Ship. The Jump Ship Jumps to Prometheus and then downloads the Reply from Mission control, this reply arrives two to three weeks later. NASA gets a booster ready for Launch at the Kennedy Space Center, its Mission Specialists load the Spare Parts and an additional Rover into the payload faring of the Rocket as well as a tank full of 40 tons of liquid hydrogen. The Rocket lifts off from Cape Canaveral on a spectacular pillar of flame, it reaches orbit and then makes a burn to reach 100 diameters, 9 days later the cargo ferry docks with the Jump Ship and makes a Jump 7 days after that the cargo ferry arrives at the 100 diameter limit and falls toward Prometheus, it enters the Promethean Atmosphere, deploys parachutes and makes a soft landing at the Colonist Base. The Colonists unload the spare parts and the spare rover, now they have two! How long does this take in all? 3 weeks to send the message and get the reply, and additional week to process the request, launch the rocket, the rocket takes another week to reach the 100 diameter limit ( a month and 9 days), another week goes by while the Jump Ship travels through Jump Space (a month and 16 days), then the payload Capsule falls toward Prometheus, (1 month and 25 days) the Colonists then receive their spare parts and spare rover. this is almost two months. the fact that NASA doesn't have a maneuver drive slows things down a bit. The Martian's request for spare parts would be processed quicker, because they don't rely on the Jump Drive for communications.

 

[Reynard]

"The Traveller Map lists a World called Prometheus, the hex it is in indicates that there is at least 1 gas giant."

Okay, yeah, I got thinking we were describing our time and reality though this phrase was there in front of me. This is Alternate Traveller Universe rather than real universe. Got it.

Configuration goes from dispersed to streamlined for landings for higher cost but no loss of dtons. No aerofins because that would cost all the reaction fuel capacity. The Ship MUST have heat shielding for landing when using non-gravitic drives with extra cost. Fuel scoops add cost while you need a minimum one ton fuel processor taken from either cargo or reaction drive fuel tankage. You then sit in orbit or on the ground with water refueling for a couple days until the hydrogen fuel is prepared. No drones in any case as they are far too high in tech level. It's all sensors and eyeball.

 

[Reynard]

"2) "How's the weather on the moon today?" We have had the tech for some time to go to the moon. Why are we not sending missions there?"

Corporations run most government today. If they feel there's no money in space research, it ain't funded or gets funding cut. That was a big disappointment in the 70s when we reach the moon then told no space program.

"Other than curiosity and research, what is the motivation to jump somewhere? Will the government fund a NASA jump mission to another star system in this extremely near future premise?

3) What next? You've had an initial series of tests between two nearby points outside the 100d limit. Likely jumping to a point out "in front" of earths orbit so the logistics of recovering the ship are simplified by the earth just orbiting to intercept the jump test ship.

I'd think trips to other systems would not be first on the agenda. Next would be trips within system. Reaching Mars seams to be popular these days."

Something as BIG as Jump technology is too important to ignore on any level. Even as little as J1 means there can be greater ranges with research and who knows what it could lead to. The reason we don't see more drive for interplanetary exploration is our propulsion technology stinks. Take too long and costs too much in money and resources to travel even to the moon except with tiny, simple robots. If gravitic technology appeared as well, space travel would explode. The Traveller Universe I envisioned developed fusion then gravitic technologies first and explored/exploited the solar system. Many years later they discover jump and the technologies combine fluidly. If there is the means to go, they will for curiosity and research and maybe a rush for profit and power.

 

[Condottiere]

If they locate a source that's even more energy efficient than fusion, and guarded by oversized if primitive smurfs.

 

[Reynard]

Is that what those blue aslans are called?

 

[Condottiere]

That would imply a very deep penetration in the Terran sphere.

Or an arboreal teleportation network.

Which explains the energy crystals.

 

[simonh]

I think the only way to build a 100 dton ship in the near future is going to be orbital assembly, but suing something like the boosters SpaceX is designing for their Mars colonisation missions, you should be able to build a 100 dton ship in a handful of launches. Their Mars colony ship is supposed to be 100 metric tons.

A big constraint on the design of the vessel depends on what sort of reaction drive you expect the vessle to have. If it's equipped with conventional rockets, then aside from the jump fuel, it's going to need to carry an awful lot of conventional rocket propellant. If it has nuclear propulsion, you can either reduce that quite a bit, or still provide it with a large store of reaction mass and dramatically expand it's dV, enabling a host of mission profiles that would simply not be possible with conventional propulsion.

I think a vehicle like this is likely to be complex enough that you'd need more than 2 crew to operate it and it's subsystems and payloads (mostly probes), probably more like 4 to 6, but you'd be able to get away without staterooms a la conventional Traveller. After all, it's not as if any of our currently planned Mars missions provide for that kind of luxury.

Initial jumps are going to be within the solar system, if only to test and prove the drive system. In fact the first few jumps are likely to be extremely short range, within boost-back range of Earth, in case there's a problem. Once the drive is properly proved, the first interplanetary missions would be tried, either to Mars or Jupiter. These missions would be used to build experience with Jump technology and planetary survey techniques.

A huge problem with the first interstellar jump is knowing exactly where to go. Even assuming we can target a particular destination point very accuractely, we don't know very precisely what planets there are round our neighbouring stars. Furthermore, we don't actualy know very accurately where the stars are. We know the direction to them fairly well, but the distance to them is really just an estimate. I'd be surprised if we know the distances to less than a few hundred AU or so. That means the first jump we make will be a very long range survey mission to obtain astrographic data about the position of the star and it's planets, and perform medium range observations of the planetary system for the second trip. Even on that second trip, you'd not want to risk trying to get too close to any planets, but you would know where they are so you could dispatch a few probes. You'd probably also want to drop off a communications relay in stellar orbit, to collect together all the transmitted data from the probes and store it for remote retrieval whyen you come back.

Only on your 3rd or 4th trip would you risk getting close enough to a planet to attempt boosting the ship into orbit. You'd want to do dozens of trips to the system and very thorough robotic surveys, including surface rovers and perhaps also sample return missions, before considering manned landings. Especially considering that manned landings on anything much bigger than Mars, or with a substantial atmosphere, would be one-way trips.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Condottiere]

In theory, if it really is two parsecs to our next neighbour, jump into the empty hex, establish a base. and then slowly do quarter parsec jumps.

 

[F33D]

In theory, if it really is two parsecs to our next neighbour, jump into the empty hex, establish a base. and then slowly do quarter parsec jumps.

The Alpha Centauri system is 4.242 light years (2 parsecs in Trav) away and is the closest system to us.

 

[Condottiere]

You could approach it like mountain climbing.

The quarter parsec jumping might be a compromise between impatience to get there, and feeling out the route.

 

[Reynard]

Remember, each quarter step microjump is going to eat a full 2 parsecs worth of fuel and a week of travel. If the physics says you can go two parsecs, do it! Experiment with microjumping in system as a prelude to the full jump event and you can fly back to base under your own power or have a recovery ship waiting for accidents. This would also be the time to practice gas giant refueling where you can control everything.

The idea that you only know some macro features about a system from observations light years away is classic Traveller scouting. This could be the beginning of creating Survey and Exploration protocols as detailed in Book 3: Scout. Using Tom's premise that this is an alternate Classic Traveller Universe with Alpha Centauri (Prometheus) having gas giants and a habitable world, Earth observers would at least know the GGs are there and that's a plus for initial exploration. You won't know what most other smaller feature are until you look. The first maiden jump will be out system where hazards are least likely. This allows mapping the most prominent features including worlds and asteroid belts. That information plus the fact you survived the first jump is often plenty! They're going to take all that information home and the ship might not fly for months or more as all data is picked to death. Genie is out of the bottle when they do come home.

 

[Condottiere]

I don't think that even a prototype jump drive consumes double the usual amount of fuel, though the drive itself is twice as big.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Remember, each quarter step microjump is going to eat a full 2 parsecs worth of fuel and a week of travel. If the physics says you can go two parsecs, do it! Experiment with microjumping in system as a prelude to the full jump event and you can fly back to base under your own power or have a recovery ship waiting for accidents. This would also be the time to practice gas giant refueling where you can control everything.

The idea that you only know some macro features about a system from observations light years away is classic Traveller scouting. This could be the beginning of creating Survey and Exploration protocols as detailed in Book 3: Scout. Using Tom's premise that this is an alternate Classic Traveller Universe with Alpha Centauri (Prometheus) having gas giants and a habitable world, Earth observers would at least know the GGs are there and that's a plus for initial exploration. You won't know what most other smaller feature are until you look. The first maiden jump will be out system where hazards are least likely. This allows mapping the most prominent features including worlds and asteroid belts. That information plus the fact you survived the first jump is often plenty! They're going to take all that information home and the ship might not fly for months or more as all data is picked to death. Genie is out of the bottle when they do come home.

I think we can rule out close in gas giants, they would have been detected by now, as their orbital periods would be short and we could detect the Doppler shift of the stars wobble, but a gas giant way out there, say 3 times the maximum separation between the two stars, could exist, we haven't ruled that out, and for classic Traveller, a gas giant 120 AU out could be reached with a ship with a maneuver drive, not so for NASA without, so it can either jump to that distant gas giant or it can jump to Prometheus, but it can't go from one to the other without taking a long time without a jump drive, say years to a decade to go from one to the other in normal space. So as far as NASA in concerned, there may be a gas giant in the system (orbiting around both stars) but it is too far out to be useful. Also a gas giant orbiting Proxima Centauri would also be considered in the system, but again it is too far out to be useful to NASA as a place to refuel. Climbing out of the atmosphere of a gas giant is also something NASA has never done before, skimming from orbit also hasn't been tried either, it is easier to get hydrogen from the icy moons of Jupiter. NASA will have to jump with return fuel, until it finds a reliable source of hydrogen in a low gravity well, most likely an icy asteroid of comet, but it is easier just to jump with return fuel at this point. Of the 100 tons that gets jumped, 40 tons of it is fuel, 20 tons is consumed by the first jump and the remaining 20 tons by the jump back. Eventually NASA may try to mine the poles of the Moon for hydrogen compounds, it would be much easier to get it from the moon than hauling it up from Earth. the Jump Drive should also make the colonization of Mars and the asteroid belt easier too. asteroids can be mined for hydrogen, the jump drive takes care of getting there and back, in fact Pluto could just as easily be mined as an asteroid for hydrogen. You jump to Pluto, consuming 20 tons of hydrogen, you mine 80 tons of hydrogen, jump back to Earth, consuming 20 tons with 60 tons remaining for your voyages to Alpha Centauri.

 

[AndrewW]

You jump to Pluto, consuming 20 tons of hydrogen, you mine 80 tons of hydrogen, jump back to Earth, consuming 20 tons with 60 tons remaining for your voyages to Alpha Centauri.

On a 100 ton ship? Good luck, that wouldn't leave much room for the jump drive, any sort of reaction drive NASA might use, power plant, bridge, crew, any living space...

Though one could perhaps take a drop tank with them and use that for fuel for the return trip.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

actually it would take only 10 tons of hydrogen to get to Pluto or anywhere else in the Solar System, as you need only Jump 1. You mine 80 tons of hydrogen, reserving 20 tons for the mining ship, it takes another 10 tons to get back to Earth and the mining ship retains 10 tons to get back to Pluto to do some more mining. Assume velocity is retained with the jump, if that is the case, the Mars might be more attractive place for jump fuel mining, its atmosphere allows you to aerobrake, match velocities with Mars, land on its surface, mine the Polar Caps, then take off again, and Jump. If there s hydrogen on Deimos, that would be even better!