What we, the players would like to see in SST:WotS

[Rabidchild]

Not many of us will be able to make the SST feedback day at Mongoose Towers so I thought I'd start this thread so everyone can tell Mongoose what they would like to see in the next incarnation of SST. If you have played a few games of SST:Evo, please mention that for the record. For ease of reading please put any proposed rules in bold text.

Here's my ideas after playing a few games of SST:Evo

Arachnid warriors should ignore terrain 1" or smaller for movement and it should not provide them with cover. For that matter I think that warriors and their variants might not need cover at all. The models have so many long legs and other bits that it's simple to put a claw touching a piece of terrain to claim cover/concealment. There's also ease of game play to consider; I had a swarm of 15 with 7 in cover, and 5 in concealment. It was a pain to work out. I would go with the idea that warriors don't use cover, they rush the enemy. The other bug types might have enough brains or be small enough to use cover, but not warriors.

"Feral: This unit may never benefit from cover, it is either too large or lacks the intelligence or training to do so."


Specify with jump-troops if they cannot jump into or out of cover vs into or out of terrain. This came up in the game where some MI were behind a 1" barricade; cover but not terrain they were in. We let the MI jump away or back to the barricade as it seemed logical.

"A unit may not jump into or out of terrain."


Make advanced tunneling rules more than the "40k deepstrike" they are on the cards. (I know Matt has said they would, no harm in confirming a good idea.)

Keep the brain bug as he is in the BF:Evo cards. It's well balanced between power and fragility.

The MI leadership seems a little bland, only taken because they have to be (if the advanced rules make army composition like in BF:Evo) or as backup if a unit takes casualties. I would like to see a more active use of these Heroes of the Federation.

"Career Officer: Superior training and motivation means this model may always take a single action, even if all its actions would be lost due to suppression or similar effects." (Credit to Pieta on the EvoCommand boards for this rule, it's a good one.)


Use me as a playtester! I love this game.

*edited title Jan 28 to show the evolution of the discussion and the game itself*

 

[Goldwyrm]

I really enjoy the current rules as they are now. That said, what follows would be my vision of an improved SST ruleset. Assume the following as changes to the original game and not an Evo product:

1) We often forget to apply flinching equally. Remove it altogether or allow certain weapons the ability to make size 2 or smaller models flinch for extra flavor.

2) Keep Tunnel rules the way they are. If anything I'd like to see more options such as new types of tunnel assets like breeding chambers, concealed sinkholes, etc.

3) Unit Cards should supplement a formal army book, not replace it.

4) The Forth..If it is still timely to change them please do. I very much liked the small walkers that look like robotic Arachnid warriors. The other designs look too much like common mechs from other games. I want alien feeling aliens and not human mech using aliens.

5) Regular PAMI and LAMI can be reduced to 1 reaction. I like multiple alert status reactions for the best of the Mobile Infantry. I would like to see multiple reactions stay for veteran PAMI, Marauders, Officers & NCOs, Pathfinders, and Exosuits. Keep the low ammo for multiple reacting models. I like the cinematic effect.

6) I'm happy with the 1st edition stats. I don't know how tested the Evo stats are and I've seen a post or two about some odd situations that compared to 1st edition results makes me uncertain.

7) Add more vehicles for the Mobile Infantry- wheeled vehicles for example. I'd also like to see vehicle damage charts with different effects from damage.

8) I like the Air Phase but it needs some cleaning up. I feel support missiles should just hit with an artillery deviation roll (old style, btw) but other flying units or AAA can intercept like an alert status reaction from the intended point of impact. It saves trying to figure out how the missile flies in from a board edge when it really is just going to blow up anyway. Also reduce the speed choices to something like Ground Support, Strafe, and Intercept Offtable. The first is like VSTOL and Loiter on the board for close support and pickup/delivery of ground units. The second just defines a corridor for a flyby ground supporting attack that can be reacted to. The last allows an abstract dogfight to occur offtable between Assets such as responding to an air unit that just strafed and left the table.

9) I like the size and terrain rules as they are. They are generic enough to cover all kinds of terrain on many kinds of worlds. Keep them please. Add to them with unique and interesting terrain types with unique effects.

10) In a relaunch it would be neat to release new "named" units that get a special ability or gear every few months.

11) I'm ok with suppression rules being added. I don't think it should be automatic. I think a unit should be able to roll it off (say against a command value) to get their full actions.

Thanks.

 

[Paladin]

Stick with the modular items in unit designation/creation. It adds much more depth to the game and allows greater customization of forces. It's something BF:evo lacks. It can very difficult to fill gaps of 50-70 pts due to the large squad/fire team size requirements without filing up on artillery.

Avoid creating lots of "airborne" units. They tend to ruin a game due to overpowering factors. Esp. if you don't know your opponent is taking them.

Limit reactions in standard play to 1, but allow for upgrades on troops for multiple reactions in pts.

Clarify the cover rules from BF:Evo to clean up some oddities. see other threads. My chief recommendation would be to enforce a size limit on cover to be at least half the hieght & width of the base a model. i.e. 1" tall for size 2. This prevents the 1mm cover complaints.

Allow elevated firing positions to reduce cover benefits on all units not just reduce armor on large units.

Keep the 2nd in command type rules for corporals to avoid leaderless unit issues. And special "unit absorbtion" rules like the brain bug to multiple units.

Create a ready action to "concentrate all fire" on a single unit. Some times the fire zones are too big and dice get scattered. Allowing the focus on a single unit would be beneficial enough to waste an action on a Ready.

@Rabidchild - warrior bugs, making them a Size 2 should remove some of the issues on cover with my above suggestion.

 

[Galatea]

"Feral: This unit may never benefit from cover, it is either too large or lacks the intelligence or training to do so."

I don't think it's a good idea to deny cover to Warriors. This would make them a real dumb 'forward-only'-unit. Besides that you can't tell me that a Warrior running throw a dense forst doesn't get a cover bonus. Even if it is not smart enough to use that cover properly it's still much harder to hit.

@Rabidchild - warrior bugs, making them a Size 2 should remove some of the issues on cover with my above suggestion.

Warrior Bugs ARE Size 2

"A unit may not jump into or out of terrain."

Nonono. We have tested that. You make the MI die if you deny them to jump out of or in cover.


What I'd like to see:

- Drop the 'wounded' rule (no one uses it anyway)
- Make clear what the persistent trait really does
- MI Squads should be able to select a new unit leader by forgoing two actions (a good rule)
- Don't mess with the tunneling or artillery rules, they are good as they are
- Don't nerf some units (like in the current Evo previews CHAS or Tanker and all MI-Air defense possibilities) while letting others stay as they are (Warriors) or making them even more powerfull (Hoppers).
That screws the whole game balance.
- It should be made clear how dice are allocated if fire hits a squad with multiple target/kill-values (we found our way to manage this, but some players do still suffer problems here)
- Keep the cover = save bonus. cover = target bonus screws the entire game balance, especially if models with target 6 or 5 are involved. This produces some really crappy situations like Warrior bugs in a forest or Hopper/Rippler bugs beneath obscuring terrain beeing invulnerable to Moritas or Firecracker missiles.
- Keep the unlimited reactions. It makes the game standing out of the crowd. Overwatch is just boring and you can find it in almost any game.

 

[lastbesthope]

Not many of us will be able to make the SST feedback day at Mongoose Towers

HAs a date been announced yet or just the event itself?

LBH

 

[Iain McGhee]

Main thing I'd like them to do is keep the terrain/model size interactions the same as SST v1, especially the rule that allows large models to clamber over otherwise impassable terrain using their CC score. I'd like to see the specialist grenades back in for MI troops and with the new tunnelling rules I'd like more units to have some ability to predict exit points (listening posts or perhaps Marauders with ground-penetrating radar upgrades). Can't decide about the new reaction rules. I prefer the V1 version, but that would really hamper the Arachnids in combination with the Shatter rule. Warrior bugs (at least) need some immunity from that or their trademark swarm attacks become near impossible.

 

[lt.harper]

Ive been thinking, sence this is starship troopers evo, why not upgrade cerent troopers like for exsample the m-1 A4 power suit, just redesighn it, or make the worrior bugs look like the movie version.

 

[Paladin]

- Don't nerf some units (like in the current Evo previews CHAS or Tanker and all MI-Air defense possibilities) while letting others stay as they are (Warriors) or making them even more powerfull (Hoppers).

Based on the rules changes you almost have to. And if they are "broken" in terms of points/game balance it's kind of silly not fix them.

- It should be made clear how dice are allocated if fire hits a squad with multiple target/kill-values (we found our way to manage this, but some players do still suffer problems here)

Agreed. AoE weapons are extremely confusing on when to apply splash damage, when kills occur and how it affects suppression.

- Keep the unlimited reactions. It makes the game standing out of the crowd. Overwatch is just boring and you can find it in almost any game.

I disagree. It speeds the game up too much and makes some units near immortal and capable of putting an INSANE amount of ammo through their weapons. One reaction should be standard and bonus reactions should be limited to specific units or special abilities.

 

[Rabidchild]

Nonono. We have tested that. You make the MI die if you deny them to jump out of or in cover.

I didn't say cover, I said terrain. That's exactly the reason for my clarification. If some MI have a wall or barricade they can shoot over but still gain cover from touching it, great, let them jump all they like. Stopping units from jumping into or out of terrain stops the pop-up wars that always used to happen in my gaming group: a unit of MI in a building or forest deep enough that they can't be seen will ready, jump out, shoot and land where they started. It bogged down the game and made them Stationary Infantry, rather than Mobile Infantry. The games we played with this style were not fun.

As for the warrior bugs, they're the size of a truck! So no, I don't think they'd get cover from hiding a leg behind a tree. :lol: They would still have concealment, but the main reason (that I forgot to put in) is that with their Target of 5+, warriors in cover can't be touched by Morita fire and that just didn't feel right. Concealment yes, cover no. If Evo wasn't card based I would even suggest that it be an army rule that they don't benefit from cover unless the unit has a rule that says it can (mantis, brain, infiltrator, cliff mites, control bugs).

 

[Galatea]

Based on the rules changes you almost have to. And if they are "broken" in terms of points/game balance it's kind of silly not fix them.

I haven't seen any broken units in SST. Just players being to dumb to find the right units or tactics to counter them.

I disagree. It speeds the game up too much and makes some units near immortal and capable of putting an INSANE amount of ammo through their weapons. One reaction should be standard and bonus reactions should be limited to specific units or special abilities.

It doesn't really speed up the game - most time your units won't have more than two reactions per turn.
Apart from that, one reaction makes cheap swarming units completely overpowered. By now you simply cannot swarm an Grizzly Squad or an Ape Marauder with Warrior Bugs

As for the warrior bugs, they're the size of a truck! So no, I don't think they'd get cover from hiding a leg behind a tree. Laughing They would still have concealment, but the main reason (that I forgot to put in) is that with their Target of 5+, warriors in cover can't be touched by Morita fire and that just didn't feel right. Concealment yes, cover no. If Evo wasn't card based I would even suggest that it be an army rule that they don't benefit from cover unless the unit has a rule that says it can (mantis, brain, infiltrator, cliff mites, control bugs).

Even a Warrior Bug should be smart enough to keep his head down if he stands behind a wall of half his height. They may not be very intelligent but they are certainly not stupid. Especially when commanded by a Brain.

And in a dense forest you do not simply have "a leg behind a tree". There will probably be five to ten trees in you way - that's enough to cover even a Warrior.
I don't know what kind of forest you have in your area but in ours you could hardly see a Warrior (or a truck) more than 50 Meters away :lol:
More than enough trees between you and that thing to soak up bullets.

As for the cannot-be-wounded-problem that's the problem of these silly cover=target bonus rules. If you just leave cover=save bonus you simply don't have that problem.

I didn't say cover, I said terrain. That's exactly the reason for my clarification. If some MI have a wall or barricade they can shoot over but still gain cover from touching it, great, let them jump all they like. Stopping units from jumping into or out of terrain stops the pop-up wars that always used to happen in my gaming group: a unit of MI in a building or forest deep enough that they can't be seen will ready, jump out, shoot and land where they started. It bogged down the game and made them Stationary Infantry, rather than Mobile Infantry. The games we played with this style were not fun.

Okay, I see your point here - but we did never assume you could jump out of closed buildings or a bunker (there will be a certain amount of steel or stone above the trooper's heads).
And in the end it doesn't matter whether you stay in this forest or jump from behind the left house the behind the right house - and next turn back behind the left house.

Besides that I still don't understand your problem here. We had never any problems wiping out an MI Squad that tried to hide himself the whole game (there are things like Flamberges, Bombs, Mortars and Flamers or for Bugs Plasma, Firefries and Hoppers/Ripplers).
They may stay there for a long time but at some point they will find tehmselves in a really bad position and then they are D-E-D-dead.

I have never seen any game where a "bunker MI" did win against an aggressive pressure-thriving enemy.

 

[Goldwyrm]

My group uses a lot of terrain. I think MI should be able to jump out of just about any terrain and jump into most terrain. If you're playing with large boulder fields for instance, size 2 or bigger the MI should be able to jump from large boulder to large boulder without a problem. If the boulder field were size 1 then it might be tough to land on a boulder the same size but jumping out should still present no trouble at all.

 

[Soulmage]

It doesn't really speed up the game - most time your units won't have more than two reactions per turn.
Apart from that, one reaction makes cheap swarming units completely overpowered. By now you simply cannot swarm an Grizzly Squad or an Ape Marauder with Warrior Bugs.

On the contrary, if the MI player can exploit the terrain properly to force the bugs to close through a defile, they can get four or five reactions on the same turn. I've seen it happen. Its not pretty. It makes them rediculously overpowered when one hit can devastate half the oncoming force.

IMO, moving to one reaction only is the single best change in the move to Evo rules. It forces you to use multiple mutually supporting units with iterlocking fields of fire, rather than simply one unit that does it all. It put more emphasis on manuver and tactics, vs. just chucking bucketfuls of dice.

 

[Galatea]

On the contrary, if the MI player can exploit the terrain properly to force the bugs to close through a defile, they can get four or five reactions on the same turn. I've seen it happen. Its not pretty. It makes them rediculously overpowered when one hit can devastate half the oncoming force.

What terrain do you need to do that? Warrior Bugs ignore Size 2 difficult terrain - if they have to walk through size 3 terrain they won't be even visible to the MI Units (and in worst case will have a 2+ save).
Besides that, ever though of using Hoppers? Or Ripplers? Or Plasma Bug fire? Or tunneling? Or jumping Bugs like Firefries? Or shooting Bugs like Blasters (which even ignore cover)? Or even Infiltrators?

IMO, moving to one reaction only is the single best change in the move to Evo rules. It forces you to use multiple mutually supporting units with iterlocking fields of fire, rather than simply one unit that does it all. It put more emphasis on manuver and tactics, vs. just chucking bucketfuls of dice.

I use multiple units that cover each other right now (not always in reaction range or line of sight, but always in weapon range). In fact most of my battles look much like a chess game. If you aren't doing this in the V1 rules you are doing something wrong. Seriously.

The problem with just one reaction is that if you have triggered that reaction you can ignore this unit for the rest of your turn. You can jump right in it an rip it apart and there is nothing they can do.
Your entire army can walk in it's reaction range and there won't happen anything.

This comes most clear if you have a mixed force of Firefries and Warriors.
Firefries are Suidicide Flamers - in the V1 rules they will die after they made their attack.
One-reaction screws that whole thing. You close with your Warriors, soak up reaction fire, jump in your fries, rip that squad apart, and they will survive.
If he saves his reaction for the fries even better - more Warriors will survive. Bugs always win.

Warriors and Firefries didn't go up in points, they stayed the same, though they are much more powerful now. Yes, the Evo fries got D6 CC but mine never survived long enough to recognize that anyway.

One-reaction makes any mass army extremely powerful, especially when supported by some fast moving and hard hitting units. The opposing units are simply unable to spit out enough fire to harm them significantly. You can swarm ANYTHING, if you attack on a broad front (this will keep any enemy unit busy and prevent that units will fire at one of your units, because they are under pressure of being overrun themselves. If set up well most of your units will end their movement in 2-3 reaction ranges denying supportive reactions to most of your enemies army).
The only way to prevent this is to keep you force together as close as possible. Then of course you get artilleried off the board.

SST doesn't work with a one-reaction-system. Because it was never meant to.
You can't just adjust some stats and assume that the game will still work if you cut out one of the most important and balancing-influencing rules of the game.
That's like taking Warhammer Fantasy, replacing it's close combat rules by those of Warhammer 40k and assume the game will still work. It will not.

If you want a one-reaction-system you need to revise the ENTIRE army stats. Completely.

 

[Paladin]

It doesn't really speed up the game - most time your units won't have more than two reactions per turn.
Apart from that, one reaction makes cheap swarming units completely overpowered. By now you simply cannot swarm an Grizzly Squad or an Ape Marauder with Warrior Bugs.

On the contrary, if the MI player can exploit the terrain properly to force the bugs to close through a defile, they can get four or five reactions on the same turn. I've seen it happen. Its not pretty. It makes them rediculously overpowered when one hit can devastate half the oncoming force.

IMO, moving to one reaction only is the single best change in the move to Evo rules. It forces you to use multiple mutually supporting units with iterlocking fields of fire, rather than simply one unit that does it all. It put more emphasis on manuver and tactics, vs. just chucking bucketfuls of dice.

seconded.

 

[Paladin]

The problem with just one reaction is that if you have triggered that reaction you can ignore this unit for the rest of your turn. You can jump right in it an rip it apart and there is nothing they can do.
Your entire army can walk in it's reaction range and there won't happen anything.

This comes most clear if you have a mixed force of Firefries and Warriors.
Firefries are Suidicide Flamers - in the V1 rules they will die after they made their attack.
One-reaction screws that whole thing. You close with your Warriors, soak up reaction fire, jump in your fries, rip that squad apart, and they will survive.
If he saves his reaction for the fries even better - more Warriors will survive. Bugs always win.

Hence the introduction of tactics.

Warriors and Firefries didn't go up in points, they stayed the same, though they are much more powerful now. Yes, the Evo fries got D6 CC but mine never survived long enough to recognize that anyway.

The squad size increased forcing you to have more bugs in a smaller area making them more susceptible to AoE attacks.

One-reaction makes any mass army extremely powerful, especially when supported by some fast moving and hard hitting units. The opposing units are simply unable to spit out enough fire to harm them significantly. You can swarm ANYTHING, if you attack on a broad front (this will keep any enemy unit busy and prevent that units will fire at one of your units, because they are under pressure of being overrun themselves. If set up well most of your units will end their movement in 2-3 reaction ranges denying supportive reactions to most of your enemies army).
The only way to prevent this is to keep you force together as close as possible. Then of course you get artilleried off the board.

If you are in cover and the victim of a CC charge you get to react before they attack. Potentially wiping them out and negating their attack. Next round you jump and run, rinse and repeat. You argument of a mass army works for both armies. Load up on LAMI if you really want too. Small squads = more reactions. Large squads = deadlier reactions.

SST doesn't work with a one-reaction-system. Because it was never meant to.
You can't just adjust some stats and assume that the game will still work if you cut out one of the most important and balancing-influencing rules of the game.

I think the easiest solution to fixing the issue is upping the command radius on MI units to 12" base. The ability to fan out severely limits being overrun and allows for tons more flexibility.

If you want a one-reaction-system you need to revise the ENTIRE army stats. Completely.

Seems to be the case on most so far.

 

[MaxSteiner]

Hence the introduction of tactics.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry I couldnt resist, it just seems silly to say that when you're arguing for the removal of multiple reactions, it cuts both ways you know

Seriously though, I dont think theres a solution which would please everybody.
We're just going to get into arguaments with people who didnt like V1 for whatever reason (Though I do have to side with Galatea somewhat, plenty of the complaints I've heard are from people not exploiting the rules, or not grasping the possibilities available), and people who dont like Evo because it cuts out parts they like in V1 (Some of which may well stand in the way of mainstream success).
The people who like Evo, almost seem to like it for the same reason that hardcore V1 fans dislike it .
As I've said before I dont think there was essentially anything wrong with V1 appart from the descriptions, explinations and proofreading.

I dislike the thought of 1 reaction because it removes one of the most distinctive parts of SST (And the thing that 90% of people were raving about a couple of years back...), and leaves us with something not to dissimilar to 40K, never mind any tactical effects.
Does it make some units unbalanced? Yes maybe, but if your running your bugs towards a pair Marauders at the top of a valley they should be wiped out. And this is coming from someone whos had their ass handed to them pretty much everytime he's faced Marauders, its not a deficency in the rules, its a deficency in my tactics and army choices!

... Unless SST needs to be distanced from the Evo brand for whatever reason, I'd favour Evo type basic rules set (since thats what it fundamentally is), tweaked V1 advanced rules.

 

[Paladin]

Hence the introduction of tactics.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Sorry I couldnt resist, it just seems silly to say that when you're arguing for the removal of multiple reactions, it cuts both ways you know

When you have fewer resources you have to be wiser with their use.

Seriously though, I dont think theres a solution which would please everybody.
We're just going to get into arguaments with people who didnt like V1 for whatever reason

Sure you can. Hybrid it. All units get 1 reaction unless the units have special abilities allowing for multiple. Experienced/high rate of fire units can then react multiple times and the newbie/grunt units like the LAMI are toast.

We're just going to get into arguaments with people who didnt like V1 for whatever reason (Though I do have to side with Galatea somewhat, plenty of the complaints I've heard are from people not exploiting the rules, or not grasping the possibilities available), and people who dont like Evo because it cuts out parts they like in V1 (Some of which may well stand in the way of mainstream success).
The people who like Evo, almost seem to like it for the same reason that hardcore V1 fans dislike it .
As I've said before I dont think there was essentially anything wrong with V1 appart from the descriptions, explinations and proofreading.

With unlimited reactions the advantage almost always goes to the MI. Aside from the largest units, EVERY unit of arachnids will trigger a reaction because they all have a range < 10".

 

[MaxSteiner]

Im sorry but I dont agree, bugs get alarm screach which is one of the best reactions in the game (IMO).
Unless you're charging troops with unlimited weapons its just a matter of applying force in the right places, waiting on the ammo roles and diverting their attention from the really threatening stuff underground. Like I say, I can see how multiple reactions could be seen as a massive MI benefit, but the bugs have the advantage of massive numbers and tunneling. Andy Chambers design notes at the back pretty much say that was the intent don't they?

As it stands the 1 reaction in evo is just overwatch pure and simple.
I am more in favour of extra reaction based on abilities... kinda....
If there were some way to incorperate the warzone system as well then I'd be even more in favour (Basically a trooper might get say 3 actions a turn, any number of those may be saved for reactions in the opponants turn).
... I suppose I could almost live without unlimited reactions if the switch were to limited reactions, but going back to one seems like a massive step backwards in game design.

 

[Rabidchild]

I'm liking the discussion between the two versions of the game. Whatever comes in the future will benefit from seeing as many opinions as possible.

As far as one reaction vs unlimited, I think it boils down to a post by Matt long ago where he said that if a game made you put markers on the table, it wasn't as smooth as it could be. Granted in Evolution there are wounds to keep track of, but I have yet to see a game where suppression or reactions needed to be marked. I believe the game will be moving in this general direction.

To sum up all this talking about talking, everyone contributing to this thread thinks SST is a good game and wants to see it grow and succeed. Will the v1 guys keep playing if it becomes Evo? I think so. Will the Evo guys keep playing if it stays v1? Yes. Okay, metacommunication out of the way, back to point by point.

I would like to see Evolution's suppression rules used in SST. They really shine in a shooting game and while SST worked pretty well for MI vs MI or Skinnies, it just feels better with the Evolution set.

I would love to see the old squad customization come back, say in the form of an upgrades box that has flamers, snipers and javelin launchers. Maybe a special Sgt or Cpl model that is easy to identify if there are extra rules for them.

Keep the "Special Talent" special, no more psychic traits for every officer.

Honestly, as much as I love the clean 1 reaction system of Evolution, I really did like the "Out of ammo" rules from v1. If there was some way to keep them, or even hybridize them as Paladin suggests, I think that would add to the feel of the game.

@Galatea: True enough about forests, I was just assuming by that point the model would be more than his size into the forest and therefor out of line of sight.

I don't think warriors are terribly smart, the book lists their IQ which isn't terribly high, but more than that they are alien and might not think as we do. Really background can be written to explain either way, I simply wanted the Feral rule to allow them to be shot up by moritas.

As far as the hiding MI, it's true that if you have the resources you can just drop a plasma shot on them and it's not a problem. It's in small games where this is an issue. About the size of games that are easy to demo, to be precise.

 

[Paladin]

Im sorry but I dont agree, bugs get alarm screach which is one of the best reactions in the game (IMO).
Unless you're charging troops with unlimited weapons its just a matter of applying force in the right places, waiting on the ammo roles and diverting their attention from the really threatening stuff underground.

Unless they alter SST:Evo, there are no real ammo limits in BF:Evo (with the exception of aircraft). I've not seen anything regarding ammo in the SST:Evo cards I've read/played with thus far.