What does TL mean?

[MasterGwydion]

Well that was a bit Dark Imperium of you!



But the 3rd Imperium's penchant for violence is well known.
https://forum.mongoosepublishing.co...g-them-continuation-thread.125107/post-989264



I know, especially since so many starports in the Imperium are class D, E, or X. Smugglers bring in products from other empires, land at some class E starport that's a patch of cleared land with a couple of quonset huts, sell whatever they want with no documentation, include fat services fees for any curious starport officials, and then the next batch of roguish merchants buy it from a warehouse on that world. Thus the origin of the goods is now "Imperial" with no tariffs attached.

I'm sure piracy is punishable by death in the Imperium, but that doesn't stop people from doing it.

Class D

Class C

Seems like at Class D and below, as long as you land more than 10km away from the Starport, they can't really monitor you. Class C and up seems to monitor the whole planet, so on those worlds it would be more bribery-style smuggling. On Class D and below it seems to be more of a land-wherever-you-want-type of smuggling.

 

[Terry Mixon]

And Sabmiqys, at TL-17 in Antares 2117. It is red-zoned, possibly (pure speculation here) because the original native organic populations all died out and left their (still thriving) system in the care of their true-conscious Artificial Intelligences.

It would make quite an interesting stop along the plotline of Singularity Act Two.

Isn't that the place with the robots that kidnap anyone that gets pushy? I didn't search for TL17 so I missed it.

 

[tytalan]

Confiscating the spacecraft involved is punishment enough.


In the United States, civil forfeiture (also called civil asset forfeiture or civil judicial forfeiture)[1] is a process in which law enforcement officers take assets from people who are suspected of involvement with crime or illegal activity without necessarily charging the owners with wrongdoing. While civil procedure, as opposed to criminal procedure, generally involves a dispute between two private citizens, civil forfeiture involves a dispute between law enforcement and property such as a pile of cash or a house or a boat, such that the thing is suspected of being involved in a crime. To get back the seized property, owners must prove it was not involved in criminal activity. Sometimes it can mean a threat to seize property as well as the act of seizure itself.[2] Civil forfeiture is not considered to be an example of a criminal justice financial obligation.

To make matters more interesting while a Criminal requires “proof without a reasonable doubt “ Civil cases require “ preponderance of the evidence“ which is a much lower threshold than a Criminal case.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Isn't that the place with the robots that kidnap anyone that gets pushy? I didn't search for TL17 so I missed it.

No idea. They are mentioned in the Robot Handbook.

 

[tytalan]

Well that was a bit Dark Imperium of you!

Classic Origin Third Imperium from the LBBs. What Fandom wants to forget is the Third Imperium was largely based on/ inspired by the Empire from Star Wars. The Marines were modeled at least loosely after Imperial Stormtroopers. The LBB 3I was much darker than the current version of the same and you can see this if you read the News blurbs in the JTAS and The Traveller Journal (a couple of these talk about the marines being dropped on a imperial world for one reason or another). If you click the Wiki the Imperial high laws literally forbid the use or ownership of WMDs to member worlds but the Navy and Marine were well equipped with such. The Marines are equipped with FGMP 15s and Battle Dress and supported by meson artillery the army outside of a few nobles personal forces was set up at TL13 much of this is from the Spinward Marches Campaign. In fact the spark that started the rebellion was that the Archduke didn’t fell that his friend the Emperor was pushing the reforms they both wanted fast enough.

 

[phavoc]

Well that was a bit Dark Imperium of you!



But the 3rd Imperium's penchant for violence is well known.
https://forum.mongoosepublishing.co...g-them-continuation-thread.125107/post-989264

Im not familiar with all those listing. I'd have to go back and look them up. Sylvan history might be too distant and/or not relevant. The Solomami portion might, arguably, be one considered like a civil war - if you wanted to go far enough back where Terrans conquered the previous empire and formed their first Imperium. One has to ask at what point in history do you draw the line and say its historical but not relevant.

I know, especially since so many starports in the Imperium are class D, E, or X. Smugglers bring in products from other empires, land at some class E starport that's a patch of cleared land with a couple of quonset huts, sell whatever they want with no documentation, include fat services fees for any curious starport officials, and then the next batch of roguish merchants buy it from a warehouse on that world. Thus the origin of the goods is now "Imperial" with no tariffs attached.

I'm sure piracy is punishable by death in the Imperium, but that doesn't stop people from doing it.

Smuggling will be low volume, high-value things, just like they have always been (or nearly always). People smuggle gold, drugs, cigarettes and other rare valuables. Very rarely do they smuggle things like iron ore, soybeans or oil.

Ships may not even need to land somewhere- they can just meet up in deep space and do a cargo transfer. Since the ship from the system is already listed as an in-system trader it has no need to land at the Imperial port and can proceed to any port or spaceport in the system without attracting notice or given imperial ships reason to board for an inspection.

One would expect an authoritarian regime to have eminently bribeable customs officials. It seems to always work that way (free democratic societies also have eminently bribeable officials). The more you squeeze the more they seem to run through your fingers.

 

[Condottiere]

They're smuggling oil.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The Imperium has three tiers of navy that patrol the whole of the Imperium, not just the A to C starports.

The Imperial Navy has thousands of destroyer class and smaller vessels to patrol every world in the sector, subsector navies have patrol cruisers, SDBs and the like to patrol the worlds of their subsector, and finally planetary navies patrol their own space.

All of those are duty bound to eliminate smuggling and any other threats to Imperial trade - another unintended consequence of changing the setting to have such vast numbers of IN and subsector navy ships is that piracy within the Imperium should be all but eliminated. And it would take one destroyer flotilla to completely stomp Drinax. Just to be certain send a light cruiser squadron or two...

 

[MasterGwydion]

The Imperium has three tiers of navy that patrol the whole of the Imperium, not just the A to C starports.

The Imperial Navy has thousands of destroyer class and smaller vessels to patrol every world in the sector, subsector navies have patrol cruisers, SDBs and the like to patrol the worlds of their subsector, and finally planetary navies patrol their own space.

All of those are duty bound to eliminate smuggling and any other threats to Imperial trade - another unintended consequence of changing the setting to have such vast numbers of IN and subsector navy ships is that piracy within the Imperium should be all but eliminated. And it would take one destroyer flotilla to completely stomp Drinax. Just to be certain send a light cruiser squadron or two...

Except everyone is corrupt (your assertation), so you just bribe the patrol commander and go on about your merry way.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I have never said everyone is corrupt, just that corruption is rife.

The ship captains are acting with the authority of the Imperium, and they get a handsome kickback from world governments and the subsector duke to ensure that they enforce Imperial trade rules.

Why take a bribe when you can just impound the whole ship, sell it for prize money, confiscate the goods, and sell the crew to the nearest prison planet?

 

[phavoc]

I have never said everyone is corrupt, just that corruption is rife.

The ship captains are acting with the authority of the Imperium, and they get a handsome kickback from world governments and the subsector duke to ensure that they enforce Imperial trade rules.

Why take a bribe when you can just impound the whole ship, sell it for prize money, confiscate the goods, and sell the crew to the nearest prison planet?

This sounds like sarcasm? Not sure here.

 

[steelbrok]

High tariffs will drive people to smuggling. Some on a professional level with a regular list of clients who place orders with them. So will high taxes aimed at discouraging things (smoking being a good example). Make the profit margin high enough and you even find customs agents letting things through for a cut. The U.S. has a big border and history shows you can't guard it all.

Has there been a marked increase in smuggling into the US this year? It's certainly an opportunity to research this theory

 

[Condottiere]

There are so many exceptions being granted, it's rather like chickening out.

Otherwise:

 

[Sigtrygg]

This sounds like sarcasm? Not sure here.

No, it is not sarcasm. It is what I think would keep IN and SN "loyalish" to their superiors. That and complete indoctrination into "Imperium good"...

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Has there been a marked increase in smuggling into the US this year? It's certainly an opportunity to research this theory

I don't know. I do know that back in the 90s in my country taxes on cigarettes reached a high enough level that tax revenue dropped due to increased smuggling and the cost of trying to stop it. When taxes dropped to a reasonable level the smuggling plummeted and net tax revenue on cigarettes increased.

When I tried to look it up all that came up is drug smuggling and smuggling illegal immigrants.

 

[actionman]

One would expect an authoritarian regime to have eminently bribeable customs officials. It seems to always work that way (free democratic societies also have eminently bribeable officials).

A slight quibble:

I wonder if it has more to do with economic privation and the attendant anxiety than the nature of the regime. If people live in a society in which their economic security is always at risk, they'll be highly motivated to get what they can at every opportunity. The only authoritarian regimes we have recent knowledge of arose during times of life-threatening instability, and had economic components to their ideology which created problems.

It seems like a combination of:

• Economic anxiety, insecurity, or instability that gives people the feeling that they need to get what they can because disaster is always around the corner.
• Recent memory of severe privation.
• A culture of corruption.
• Ineffective law enforcement.
• Social classes farther up the societal hierarchy get lenient treatment from the courts.
• Restrictive laws that people don't support or think necessary.

I read something a long time ago which stated that in the 1700's or something British customs officials were notoriously corrupt until the British government repealed a great many taxes, tariffs, and fees. Afterwards, British customs officials were noted as notoriously honest.

 

[actionman]

at what point in history do you draw the line and say its historical but not relevant.

The start of the current polity.

 

[Condottiere]

Demand.

The English really liked French wines and cognac, and cloth.

 

[phavoc]

Has there been a marked increase in smuggling into the US this year? It's certainly an opportunity to research this theory

Well, people aren't smuggling in (so far) the things that are getting tariffed. A better question might be is smuggling of drugs from south america down now that the US military has been blowing up drug boats?

One of the odd things about smuggling is that nobody really knows the actual stats. Things are extrapolated based upon what's being caught, but other than that the Smugglers Union doesn't keep accurate records.

 

[phavoc]

No, it is not sarcasm. It is what I think would keep IN and SN "loyalish" to their superiors. That and complete indoctrination into "Imperium good"...

Ok. Wasn't sure.

I have a question about what you said here then:

(1) The ship captains are acting with the authority of the Imperium, and they get a handsome kickback from world governments and the subsector duke to ensure that they enforce Imperial trade rules.

(2) Why take a bribe when you can just impound the whole ship, sell it for prize money, confiscate the goods, and sell the crew to the nearest prison planet?

Agreed that military captains are acting with the authority of the Imperium. But they also are acting under the laws of the Imperium. I can't say that I know Imperial law code all that well, but it seems odd to me that except in times of war or perhaps in certain restricted areas, opening fire on a civilian ship only suspected of something seems overly harsh. We know from some explanations in canon that interdicted worlds may have nuclear-armed satellites that will fire on ships - but they give fair and frequent warnings before doing so. To me that sounds like their are very specific rules of engagement, and laws, that are being followed in order to do such things. I think that would factor greatly into how the IN acts.

The comment about kickbacks... I have never read that. Is that mentioned somewhere I'm unaware? Do you have a source for it? It doesn't seem like what a lawful government would engage in.

As for the 2nd comment, it would take (I think) a court to ok the seizure and sale of a ship to get prize money (and I'd think merchants would be peeved if it was a common occurence). And selling the crew sounds like slavery to me, and isn't that illegal in the Imperium under the warrant of restoration? Member worlds are also prohibited from doing so even if local laws might allow for it.