What does TL mean?

[Condottiere]

I was thinking that I'd rather have a cheap, dumb car.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The Hive Queen is made by Ling Standard Products, so it is obviously designed with Charted Space in mind.

So the author is happy to destroy the setting, or has added the fluff without thinking how it will interact with the Third Imperium.

The Imperium has enough TL16 worlds for long enough to crank out these automated planet gobblers, they should be all over the Imperium by now. So now there has to be a hand wave for why they are not and how they are restricted and how the restriction is enforced etc etc.

This is the danger of saying here is a generic book with lots of technologies, not all of which belong in every setting. Here is the Third Imperium, every technology in every book exists in it somewhere...

 

[MasterGwydion]

So the author is happy to destroy the setting, or has added the fluff without thinking how it will interact with the Third Imperium.

The Imperium has enough TL16 worlds for long enough to crank out these automated planet gobblers, they should be all over the Imperium by now. So now there has to be a hand wave for why they are not and how they are restricted and how the restriction is enforced etc etc.

This is the danger of saying here is a generic book with lots of technologies, not all of which belong in every setting. Here is the Third Imperium, every technology in every book exists in it somewhere...

Ask @Geir . He wrote it.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I have tried to multiquote some messages and failed, so here come a stream of thoughts based on last night's comments:

the hive queen is setting destroying

previous canon - within the setting the Ministry of Colonisation designateds worlds for colonisation, marshals the infrastructure, ships the colonists, bioengineers if necessary, this whole procedure can take decades (see Forboldn project)

post Robots - a hive queen or many of them are shipped from the nearest TL16 world, they can build the infrastructure and print the colonists, the colonists can then have wafer personalities downloaded.

Patents - in setting my opinion would be the Vilani granted patents within Bureaux/megacorporations and they exist in-perpetuity under Imperial law, enforceable by imprisonment, confiscation and ultimately death. The Third Imperium inherited this patent law. The megacorporations enforce it, and may call on the nearest Imperial duke to adjudicate and or bring Imperial forces to the issue.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I have tried to multiquote some messages and failed, so here come a stream of thoughts based on last night's comments:

the hive queen is setting destroying

previous canon - within the setting the Ministry of Colonisation designateds worlds for colonisation, marshals the infrastructure, ships the colonists, bioengineers if necessary, this whole procedure can take decades (see Forboldn project)

post Robots - a hive queen or many of them are shipped from the nearest TL16 world, they can build the infrastructure and print the colonists, the colonists can then have wafer personalities downloaded.

This seems to me like writers not understanding what technology could actually do. They write as if We are doing colonization using Earth-style colonization methods. In the real world, how many years has the idea for sending a seed factory to Mars or the moon to literally build up the infrastructure before sending colonists? 1980ish? If that is one of Our theories for over 40 years, do you really believe that won't be how we do it in the future? It seems to me that the writers writing Charted Space didn't have the foresight, even after this idea was proposed in 1980ish to realize what this would mean for planetary colonization.

Edit - This goes all the way back to Makers at the founding of the Third Imperium, so authors knew about it for decades.

Patents - in setting my opinion would be the Vilani granted patents within Bureaux/megacorporations and they exist in-perpetuity under Imperial law, enforceable by imprisonment, confiscation and ultimately death. The Third Imperium inherited this patent law. The megacorporations enforce it, and may call on the nearest Imperial duke to adjudicate and or bring Imperial forces to the issue.

and outside of Imperial Space? Every other race and non-imperial humans just steal the designs and the Imperium rapidly becomes a technological backwater. One Deconstruction Chamber is all that is needed for the Aslan or the Zhodani, or the Solomani, or the Hivers to have the blueprints for TL-16 Battle Dress or any other blueprint they want where they can acquire one of the items to copy.

 

[Sigtrygg]

and outside of Imperial Space? Every other race and non-imperial humans just steal the designs and the Imperium rapidly becomes a technological backwater. One Deconstruction Chamber is all that is needed for the Aslan or the Zhodani, or the Solomani, or the Hivers to have the blueprints for TL-16 Battle Dress or any other blueprint they want where they can acquire one of the items to copy.

And just like that we have something for PCs to get involved in...

 

[MasterGwydion]

And just like that we have something for PCs to get involved in...

They could have been involved anyhow. PCs can be involved in anything as long as the Referee is creative enough and the players are willing.

The same way that PCs could be involved in all of the Assassination and Rebellion stuff.

 

[MasterGwydion]

This is another of the reasons I harp in internal consistency and quality control in a setting. Many technologies in Charted Space would seem to indicate that the universe doesn't work in the way the fluff or the history says it does.

 

[MarcusIII]

Patents - in setting my opinion would be the Vilani granted patents within Bureaux/megacorporations and they exist in-perpetuity under Imperial law, enforceable by imprisonment, confiscation and ultimately death. The Third Imperium inherited this patent law. The megacorporations enforce it, and may call on the nearest Imperial duke to adjudicate and or bring Imperial forces to the issue.

Another problem: Now all companies outside the 3I can use the patents while being highly restricted inside the 3I thus making 3I company products less competitive outside the.

 

[J. L. Brown]

One Deconstruction Chamber is all that is needed for the Aslan or the Zhodani, or the Solomani, or the Hivers to have the blueprints for TL-16 Battle Dress or any other blueprint they want where they can acquire one of the items to copy.

This is firmly in 'My House Rules' territory, but I run Deconstruction Chambers exactly like Fabrication Chambers -- Basic, Enhanced, Advanced, etc. A Deconstruction Chamber produces blueprints and materials of (permitted) items up to it's own TL minus two (external Deconstruction Chambers work only for items up to TL minus three); plus I add a 'lossy' aspect, where some small percentage (which reduces as the DC improves in capability and TL) of a deconstruction becomes unusable 'waste'. For example a 'Basic' Deconstruction Chamber has exactly the same restrictions as a 'Basic' Fabricator -- no complex electronics, etc.

Anything outside the capabilities of the Chamber is still destroyed, but no schematics are produced -- and the 'waste' is increased as well.

 

[MarcusIII]

I was thinking that I'd rather have a cheap, dumb car.

FTW! Make mine a diesel without electronic engine controls. Like marine diesels that are made to not fail

 

[Sigtrygg]

The Imperium can only control worlds within its authority. They can only enforce patent ownership within their worlds, and use military force beyond its borders to enforce respecting Imperial ownership of those patents.

I very much doubt the Zhodani, the Vargr, the Sword Worlds, the Solomani, the Hive, the K'kree, or the Aslan will repect Imperial patent rights.

 

[MarcusIII]

The Imperium can only control worlds within its authority. They can only enforce patent ownership within their worlds, and use military force beyond its borders to enforce respecting Imperial ownership of those patents.

I very much doubt the Zhodani, the Vargr, the Sword Worlds, the Solomani, the Hive, the K'kree, or the Aslan will repect Imperial patent rights.

right. that's my point. Econ wise it doesn't work for the 3I. They create restrictive monopolies while their enemies surrounding the 3I don't and there's no real way to stop the influx of now much cheper goods.

 

[Condottiere]

The Interstate Commerce Commission (ICC) was a regulatory agency in the United States created by the Interstate Commerce Act of 1887. The agency's original purpose was to regulate railroads (and later trucking) to ensure fair rates, to eliminate rate discrimination, and to regulate other aspects of common carriers, including interstate bus lines and telephone companies. Beginning in 1906, Congress expanded the ICC's authority to regulate other modes of commerce.


That's why there are no tariffs levied within the Imperium.

And all goods imported from outside the Imperium are.

 

[Sigtrygg]

right. that's my point. Econ wise it doesn't work for the 3I. They create restrictive monopolies while their enemies surrounding the 3I don't and there's no real way to stop the influx of now much cheper goods.

I doubt if the Imperial economy depends on trade beyond its borders. The influx of cheaper goods from beyond the border are easily dealt with at the Imperial owned starports, either with tariffs or confiscation, destruction, and imprisonment or death for the traders.

Worlds that try to import such goods from beyond the Imperium would find themselves interdicted in short order.

Canonically the Imperium denies advanced Hive robots to be traded inside the Imperium, and enforce that easily enough.

 

[MarcusIII]

I doubt if the Imperial economy depends on trade beyond its borders.

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the goods that WILL be brought in illegally that will displace the goods created by inefficient monopolies created by the 31 gov't. The 3I gov will be LESS successful at stopping that flow as the US is at stopping drugs from coming into the county.

 

[MarcusIII]

That's why there are no tariffs levied within the Imperium.

Actually it is Article I, Section 9 of the constitution that prevents tariffs from being levied internally.

 

[phavoc]

I doubt if the Imperial economy depends on trade beyond its borders. The influx of cheaper goods from beyond the border are easily dealt with at the Imperial owned starports, either with tariffs or confiscation, destruction, and imprisonment or death for the traders.

Worlds that try to import such goods from beyond the Imperium would find themselves interdicted in short order.

Canonically the Imperium denies advanced Hive robots to be traded inside the Imperium, and enforce that easily enough.

Jump technology and the sheer size of a star system makes it nigh impossible to stop smuggling within the Imperium. The Imperial Navy's job isn't to track down smugglers, and they already don't have enough hulls to police everywhere.

History has shown us throughout ancient and modern times, if there is money to be made, smuggling will occur. Period. And the more potential profit there is the greater the incentive for people to smuggle, to bribe customs to look the other way, etc. In order for the Imperial system to work it has to be reasonable. The makers and other technology being written about in the later supplements means the economic model as portrayed in all the previous canon material is basically broken. There is no reason to trade when you can make your own stuff - or else buy the tools once and then never again.

Worlds on the fringe will, of course, look for trade across borders. Imperial law says trade is fine - just pay your taxes. Whether or not there would be punitive tariffs on the border worlds is unknown. Sure, we know the Megacorps will fight one another (literally) for market share, but they also deal with economic reality and whether or not they will have any sort of market on a frontier world, or a world of little profitability is debatable. Arguably some would probably fight over a few credits, but most are likely to be pragmatic and reallocate their capital to other locales that offer a better ROI.

I'm not sure the Imperium would be so heavy-handed, killing traders, interdicting worlds, etc. That sets things up to be a very authoritarian state and would make it such that member worlds would start chafing under the Imperium's yoke. Canon material really doesn't talk much about planetary disputes with the Imperium, or else it hints that while some planets may not be happy, none open oppose the Imperium. But there are no hordes of secret police, no mention of the Marines being regularly deployed to planets to put down insurrections and kill trade violators. For the most part it seems to be a relatively hands-off form of government.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the goods that WILL be brought in illegally that will displace the goods created by inefficient monopolies created by the 31 gov't.

There won't be any. All interstellar trade has to go through the Imperial controlled starport. Anyone caught smuggling will face the death penalty. Any world government complicit will be replaced, any world that resists will be interdicted.

The Imperium only pretends worlds have autonomy, they only have what the Imperium allows.

The 3I gov will be LESS successful at stopping that flow as the US is at stopping drugs from coming into the county.

Not really.

Every bit of interstellar trade has to go through the starport, the enterprising smuggler could try dropping goods off at a staport and then shipping it to the world, they may even forge the documentation, but when they are found out the penalties are going to be terminal.

Small scale smuggling will take place, but any large scale operation would be discovered all the faster and dealt with.

 

[MarcusIII]

There won't be any. All interstellar trade has to go through the Imperial controlled starport.

Right, just like ALL international commerce has to come through U.S. Custom controlled ports. Except it doesn't and won't when there is money to be made. I'm not talking about extremely bad game rules games rules but what would actually happen.