What does TL mean?

[MasterGwydion]

I found this while scrapping through Hard Times. Thought it might help with defining TL.

 

[ross]

This is definitely the case. Being aware of other technologies while being unable to support them or construct them has lead to some interesting things in our small civilizations.

 

[hopsnbaer]

Cargo Cult.

 

[MasterGwydion]

It means that people can have access to any TL as long as there is interstellar trade. It is merely the upper limit of local manufacturing for the world.

 

[Jame Rowe]

I thought it meant Transylvania, Left-handed.

 

[ross]

It means that people can have access to any TL as long as there is interstellar trade. It is merely the upper limit of local manufacturing for the world.

The system gets wonky when you have an Imperial Naval Base, nominally TL12-15 depending on your continuity, on a TL10 world, and really within about Jump-4 of any Imperium military base. The moment you can offload an automated factory from a cargo hold the technology level should increase to at least TL12 very quickly. At least IMTU. Once you have the ability to throw raw materials in one end and get technology from the other the system stops making sense.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The system gets wonky when you have an Imperial Naval Base, nominally TL12-15 depending on your continuity, on a TL10 world, and really within about Jump-4 of any Imperium military base. The moment you can offload an automated factory from a cargo hold the technology level should increase to at least TL12 very quickly. At least IMTU. Once you have the ability to throw raw materials in one end and get technology from the other the system stops making sense.

I have always felt that most of the planets in Traveller have artificially low tech levels for the amount of trade that is supposed to be occurring. Never figured out why that is. I just kind of ignore it now. Mostly... lol

 

[Condottiere]

That would be the general industrial base.

You could have someone in his garage, hammering out an antimatter power plant.

 

[collins355]

It means that people can have access to any TL as long as there is interstellar trade. It is merely the upper limit of local manufacturing for the world.

Yes, and this section of CT/Striker illustrates how to work this in practice...

 

[ross]

I have always felt that most of the planets in Traveller have artificially low tech levels for the amount of trade that is supposed to be occurring. Never figured out why that is. I just kind of ignore it now. Mostly... lol

Yes definitely. Anything within a single J4 of any naval base should be at least TL12. This is an interstellar polity that has been around for centuries. Simple economics would make it necessary. Of course that’s just one man’s opinion.

 

[Anstett]

I will offer up a contrarian point of view.

It is more mysterious why there are not MORE low-tech worlds, especially those near a high-tech system with a Naval base etc.

Someone comes along to your TL8 world and installs an automated factory where all you have to do is press the button. What incentive do you have to build any type of industrial base to increase the overall tech level of your planet? Just push, reward, push, reward.

I can hear you saying, "but someone will be curious and want to learn? or they will want to control the means of production and let the wealth trickle down..."

Why would you do that on your low-tech planet when there is a high-tech system just a week away? If you want training, you want to learn and do better things it is far far easier and faster to go away to learn.

Once you are away someplace where the 'machine that goes bing' is on every street corner and your ability to learn to do more grows how often are you going to want to go back home?

Perhaps a visit but more likely only those very ambitious will try to return with knowledge to bring home and lift up your neighbors. What is the faster way to self-reliance and supporting yourself? Learning the higher tech levels, become a merchant and sell those goods to your neighbors.

Which is just a manual way of the automated factory.....

 

[MasterGwydion]

I will offer up a contrarian point of view.

It is more mysterious why there are not MORE low-tech worlds, especially those near a high-tech system with a Naval base etc.

Why would a TL-8 world even exist? Most of these worlds were founded at TL-12 or above. None of these worlds had to develop this technology.

Someone comes along to your TL8 world and installs an automated factory where all you have to do is press the button. What incentive do you have to build any type of industrial base to increase the overall tech level of your planet? Just push, reward, push, reward.

The automated factory is what increases the TL of your industrial base. TL is local production.

I can hear you saying, "but someone will be curious and want to learn? or they will want to control the means of production and let the wealth trickle down..."

Wealth never trickles down and anyone who believes otherwise can't read a history book.

Why would you do that on your low-tech planet when there is a high-tech system just a week away? If you want training, you want to learn and do better things it is far far easier and faster to go away to learn.

Your low-tech planet shouldn't exist in the first place unless they are like Mennonites, since no planet is founded at that low tech level.

Once you are away someplace where the 'machine that goes bing' is on every street corner and your ability to learn to do more grows how often are you going to want to go back home?

You assume that it hasn't always been a high-tech society. It isn't a magic machine. It is a machine that is repaired, maintained, and operated by the local populace

Perhaps a visit but more likely only those very ambitious will try to return with knowledge to bring home and lift up your neighbors. What is the faster way to self-reliance and supporting yourself? Learning the higher tech levels, become a merchant and sell those goods to your neighbors.

Which is just a manual way of the automated factory.....

Again. You haven't explained why the planet would be low-tech. It is a contrarian point of view, but it doesn't explain why humans would settle a world with tech so many tech levels below their society's tech level.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Why would a TL-8 world even exist? Most of these worlds were founded at TL-12 or above. None of these worlds had to develop this technology.

Lots of reasons:

1/ Inadequate financing in the founding.

2/ Failed management wasting the resources needed to advance faster.

3/ Internal fighting destroying infrastructure so they regress.

4/ By design. Could be a form of "Amish World" that only wants a specific TL.

5/ Resource depletion.

6/ Infrastructure destroyed by external forces.

7/ Natural disaster on a global scale the old infrastructure destroyed and they haven't been able to afford to bring in higher TL yet.

8/ History of rebellion against the Empire and kept down to reduce the danger.

9/ Resource world, mining or crops.

10/ Resort world TL kept down for "atmosphere".

 

[MasterGwydion]

Lots of reasons:

1/ Inadequate financing in the founding.

It is cheaper to build at higher TLs than at lower TLs. Output versus Input.

2/ Failed management wasting the resources needed to advance faster.

Not advance, just maintain their founding TL.

3/ Internal fighting destroying infrastructure so they regress.

Definitely possible

4/ By design. Could be a form of "Amish World" that only wants a specific TL.

As stated above, yes.

5/ Resource depletion.

This is a non-answer. When you have the entire star system available to resource extraction, you don't run out of resources. Even using the current mining rules which are insane, I can't use up even 1% of the resources of a star system in 5,000 years with TL-17 mining and manufacturing equipment.

6/ Infrastructure destroyed by external forces.

Fact.

7/ Natural disaster on a global scale the old infrastructure destroyed and they haven't been able to afford to bring in higher TL yet.

Also fact.

8/ History of rebellion against the Empire and kept down to reduce the danger.

Yes.

9/ Resource world, mining or crops.

Higher tech equals more money for the owners. Lower TL makes no sense economically.

10/ Resort world TL kept down for "atmosphere".

There is a big difference between appears as a lower TL and actually being a lower TL. I can make it look like a wild west town, but it still be fully TL-15. It is technology with a retro-look. Bartender may be a robot/android/biobot. Same with the "horses" and "animals". They are not going to be merely pouring whiskey on the wound, they actually have TL-15 medical care for emergencies and for pallative care for residents. The wild west look is just for show for the tourists.

 

[Uqbarian]

There is a big difference between appears as a lower TL and actually being a lower TL. I can make it look like a wild west town, but it still be fully TL-15. It is technology with a retro-look. Bartender may be a robot/android/biobot. Same with the "horses" and "animals". They are not going to be merely pouring whiskey on the wound, they actually have TL-15 medical care for emergencies and for pallative care for residents. The wild west look is just for show for the tourists.

Just make sure you don't lock yourself in an airtight control room.

 

[ross]

In any case, I am not convinced that any settled world in the 3I with a population over 20,000,000 would be less than TL12. These automated factories can cause as many innovations as destroy them. In any case, thank you for the perspectives and discussion.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Low TL is maintained by the nobility and megacorporations so that they have a source of cheap labour and a market for their high TL goods. If every subsector duke began a program to raise the TL of every world to TL15 every world in that subsector would be self sufficient and would not need to import megacorporation produced goods. The megacorporations and their noble shareholders would lose money.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Low TL is maintained by the nobility and megacorporations so that they have a source of cheap labour and a market for their high TL goods. If every subsector duke began a program to raise the TL of every world to TL15 every world in that subsector would be self sufficient and would not need to import megacorporation produced goods. The megacorporations and their noble shareholders would lose money.

In reality, you'd be right, but because of how things are determined in Traveller. That is not the case. WTN is determined by population and TL. The higher this number the more money there is to be made. The per capita income of the planet's sophont population is also controlled by TL. The higher the TL, the higher the per capita income. The higher per capita income, the more money people spend on goods. The more money people spend on goods, the more money megacorporations make. All those planetary corporations "taking business away from the megacorps", are likely majority-owned by nobles and megacorps. Hostile takeovers are a thing in Traveller as well, and I would not bet on a planetary corporation beating the megacorps, but it would make for a good campaign.

 

[Condottiere]

1. Self sufficiency.

2. Trade deficit.

3. Capital controls.

4. Market access, in the sense that advanced technology goods are available for purchase.

 

[steelbrok]

I sometimes think it's easier to think of a world's TL as a measure of its wealth. Granted you have to explain all the poor worlds who can't afford stuff instead.