What do Atlanteans look like?

[Style]

What do Atlanteans look like?

First, some background. I just started reading Conan in the last year, be it Howard's great stories or Mongoose's great rpg. I have not (yet) read any Kull stories. As I type this, I'm working my way through the Kane tales. So perhaps this question is just out of ignorance.

So I'm reading The Moon of Skulls, and Atlanteans (or at least their descendants at the time of Kane) are repeatedly described as "brown people". Meanwhile, according to the Hyborian Age, Cimmerians are descendants of Atlanteans, and while dark haired and bronze of skin (when tanned), Cimmerians are decidedly white. What gives?

Interesting to note, I'm reading the Savage Tales of Solomon Kane from Del Rey, which is supposed to be unedited works of REH. When I look at the Moon of Skulls on wikisourse, http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Moon_of_Skulls, all references to the Atlanteans as being brown have been edited out.

 

[SnowDog]

There are two possibilities.

1) Kane and Conan doesn't share a common timeline so Atlanteans could be different in those stories.

2) If my memory serves right then both Cimmerians and Picts both are descendants of Atlanteans and they look pretty diffent, do they? So, maybe Picts are what became those Atlanteans in Kane story and Cimmerians became part of more European stock?

 

[Sting52jb]

Sorry Pict's are not descendants from Atlanteans. They were enemies of the Atlanteans, and Kull had a very difficult time accepting them as allies after he became king of Vlusia, but they soon became his staunches allies.

I have yet to read any of the Kane stories but in Howards time line, the Atlanteans become the Cimerians, who in turn become the Celts. while the Picts remain with the same name throughout his history all the way until they are the Picts fighting the Romans.

If I'm mistaken any one let me know but I have read all of Howard's Conan, and Kull stories, and most of the newer Conan stories.

 

[SnowDog]

Really? I admit that it has been ages since I read that part of Hyborian history but I could have sworn that it was the case. Anyway I stand to be corrected.

 

[Hervé]

Kull and Conan seem a lot similar, at least physically. And cimmerians are descendants from atlanteans. So I guess we have a good idea of what atlanteans look like...

 

[kintire]

So I'm reading The Moon of Skulls, and Atlanteans (or at least their descendants at the time of Kane) are repeatedly described as "brown people". Meanwhile, according to the Hyborian Age, Cimmerians are descendants of Atlanteans, and while dark haired and bronze of skin (when tanned), Cimmerians are decidedly white. What gives?

The key is "their descendents at the time of Kane". Kane only meets one actual Atlantean descendent, and he admits "oh, the shame upon me!—I, the last son of Atlantis, bear in my veins the taint of barbarian blood."

Interestingly, when he first meets Kane he comments "who are you? You are no savage — at first I thought you one of the Old Race" By which he presumeably means the Atlanteans: and Kane, of course, is white.

 

[Style]

Interestingly, when he first meets Kane he comments "who are you? You are no savage — at first I thought you one of the Old Race" By which he presumeably means the Atlanteans: and Kane, of course, is white.

Can we assume he meant Atlanteans by Old Race?

Also, while it is clear that the man Kane meets is not of pure blood, he does gives a history of the land of Negari going back a thousand years, and he repeatedly refers to the Atlanteans as being brown in that history.

 

[Krushnak]

he does gives a history of the land of Negari going back a thousand years,

and Atlantis sank atleast 20,000 yrs ago and the Hyborian age ended around 10,000 yrs ago. Plenty of time to change.

 

[Style]

he does gives a history of the land of Negari going back a thousand years,

and Atlantis sank atleast 20,000 yrs ago and the Hyborian age ended around 10,000 yrs ago. Plenty of time to change.

Right. I'm not arguing that point. I'm just saying that the fact that the atlantean in the story had barbaric blood wasn't an explanation for the atlantaens being brown. They were brown long before his time.

 

[Fernando]

I'm just saying that the fact that the atlantean in the story had barbaric blood wasn't an explanation for the atlantaens being brown.

In The Hour of the Dragon, Conan (whose people is descendant of Thurian Age's Atlanteans) is mentioned as "brown" when he saves Albiona's life and also when he frees the Venturer's black slaves (and in another part I can't remember in this moment). I believe the Atlanteans from Moon of the Skulls were the same proto-Cimmerians of Kull's age, and they are brown because Negari is sunnier than Tarantia, Poitain, Zingara, Messantia and Stygia, where Conan sought the Heart of Ahriman. 8)

About the ask in this thread's title ("What do Atlanteans look like?"), there's three simply answers:

1) The Atlanteans from Thurian Age (Kull's people) where tall, muscular, black-haired, dark-skinned and blue/grey-eyed;

2) The Skull-Face's post-Hyborian Atlanteans were - as well as Bal-Sagoth's people - brown-skinned and black-eyed;

3) The Cro-Magnon Atlanteans, mentioned in Men of the Shadows were tall, white-skinned, with black and blue eyes, and black and blond hair (see A-aea and Ga-nor, in Spear and Fang).

About first Atlantis' sinking, it happened 100,000 years ago, agreeing with Robert E. Howard (not 20,000 as DeCamp said). And, since REH never said when Conan the Cimmerian walked on the Earth, the Dale Rippke's date (33,000 BC) seems, IMO, more reasonable than LSDC's one (10,000 BC). Thirty thousand years give many more time for all that happened in The Hyborian Age, Skull-Face, Brakan The Kelt and Spear and Fang. Hope that helps.

 

[kintire]

Also, while it is clear that the man Kane meets is not of pure blood, he does gives a history of the land of Negari going back a thousand years, and he repeatedly refers to the Atlanteans as being brown in that history.

err... no he doesn't. There is no mention of any colour associated with the ancient Atlanteans, only a description of the modern (to Kane) priest.

 

[Style]

Anyone know why wikisource (and presumably other sources) have brown removed from the description of the Atlanteans?

 

[UberDog]

"Brown people" may have been seen as a racial slur. A lot of Howard's questionable racial characterizing was edited out of many Conan stories.

 

[Axerules]

Anyone know why wikisource (and presumably other sources) have brown removed from the description of the Atlanteans?

I guess it's because some REH yarns have been published with significant textual changes by some editors. Those wiki texts are probably not based on the Del Rey/Wandering Star "expurgated" editions.

 

[sidkfjjteidlkkf]

Since I have been there, they look like we do. They have a variety of complexions: dark, brown, black, white etc... They even have fast food and malls.

Oh damn, I am taking about Atlanteans is Atlanta Georgia... :lol:

 

[Style]

Also, while it is clear that the man Kane meets is not of pure blood, he does gives a history of the land of Negari going back a thousand years, and he repeatedly refers to the Atlanteans as being brown in that history.

err... no he doesn't. There is no mention of any colour associated with the ancient Atlanteans, only a description of the modern (to Kane) priest.

That's not how I interpret the following passage:

"Long eons ago—ages, ages ago—the empire of my race rose proudly above the waves. So long ago was it that no man remembers an ancestor who remembered it. In a great land to the west our cities rose. Our golden spires split the stars; our purple-prowed galleys broke the waves around the world, looting the sunset for its treasure and the sunrise for its wealth.

Our legions swept forth to the north and to the south, to the west and from the east, and none could stand before them. Our cities banded the world; we sent our colonies to all lands to subdue all savages, red, white or black, and enslave them. They toiled for us in the mines and at the galley's oars. All over the world the brown people of Atlantis reigned supreme."

An eon can be defined as a billion years, so he's actually describing them as brown back to the time of Atlantis and beyond!

 

[Style]

Anyone know why wikisource (and presumably other sources) have brown removed from the description of the Atlanteans?

I guess it's because some REH yarns have been published with significant textual changes by some editors. Those wiki texts are probably not based on the Del Rey/Wandering Star "expurgated" editions.

You actually have it the other way around. Wikisource brown edited out while this Del Rey book uses all the racial terms. The (relatively) new Del Rey Conan books are also completely unedited, Howard's words only.

Not only have references to Atlanteans as brown been removed, but apparently their slaves can't be referred to that way either. Check this out:

we sent our colonies to all lands to subdue all savages, red, white or black, and enslave them

we sent our colonies to all lands to subdue all savages, men of all colours, and enslave them

I think it's safe to say that the reason Wikisource has the brown descriptor removed from Atlanteans is b/c it's been edited to be more PC. **thumbs down**

 

[Axerules]

Anyone know why wikisource (and presumably other sources) have brown removed from the description of the Atlanteans?

I guess it's because some REH yarns have been published with significant textual changes by some editors. Those wiki texts are probably not based on the Del Rey/Wandering Star "expurgated" editions.

You actually have it the other way around. Wikisource brown edited out while this Del Rey book uses all the racial terms. The (relatively) new Del Rey Conan books are also completely unedited, Howard's words only.

Not only have references to Atlanteans as brown been removed, but apparently their slaves can't be referred to that way either. Check this out:

we sent our colonies to all lands to subdue all savages, red, white or black, and enslave them

we sent our colonies to all lands to subdue all savages, men of all colours, and enslave them

I think it's safe to say that the reason Wikisource has the brown descriptor removed from Atlanteans is b/c it's been edited to be more PC. **thumbs down**

I know, Style. It's badly written.
I was not clear: I meant "expurgated" for "pure texts" without textual changes/additions/substractions/rewrites etc...

 

[kintire]

I think it's safe to say that the reason Wikisource has the brown descriptor removed from Atlanteans is b/c it's been edited to be more PC. **thumbs down**

Bah! My trust in the Wiki world once again betrays me.

Still, barring some "two Atlantises" theory you still have to either seperate Conan's world and Kane's or posit that the priest of Negari's ancient history was not entirley accurate. Even apart from the colour issue, Conan's Atlantis never achieved the level of world domination or cultural supremacy that the priest is claiming.