What changes would YOU make to Conan Second Edition?

[urdinaran]

The whole "Knowledge (local)" thing came up in another thread. As a skill, it doesn't see alot of use. Most players will avoid sinking precious skill points into it since it only works in specific areas. It's more useful to put points into things such as Gather Info or Diplomacy.

What I did in my campaign to solve the dilemna:

Every time a character gains a level, I look at where they spent the majority of said level, and then give them 1 rank in Knowledge (local/that area) for free.

 

[Foxworthy]

The whole "Knowledge (local)" thing came up in another thread. As a skill, it doesn't see alot of use. Most players will avoid sinking precious skill points into it since it only works in specific areas. It's more useful to put points into things such as Gather Info or Diplomacy.

What I did in my campaign to solve the dilemna:

Every time a character gains a level, I look at where they spent the majority of said level, and then give them 1 rank in Knowledge (local/that area) for free.

I never seen Knowledge (Local) used for just one area. I've never seen it stated like that. I just assumed that it covers it's topics for every area. I've seen DnD adventure send players to places they've never been and ask for Knowledge (Local) and never specify that it was just for the region they were in.

 

[Trodax]

It's always been unclear to me how Knowledge (Local) is supposed to work. I've always run it as only covering one specific area (as in Knowledge (Local: Zamora), for example), but I actually think that might be "wrong". In your average Conan game, where every new adventure is set in a new, exotic location (don't know if that's an "average game", but it is the way the books are), running it like this also makes it pretty much useless for PC's. It basically becomes an NPC skill.

Many of the original stories start out in a new location, but with Conan knowing quite a lot about the environment (eg. The Vale of Lost Women, Beyond the Black River), so there is certainly room for a skill that gives a character basic, local information, but without being tied to a specific location.

For example, you could start a session with:
"You are now in the Black Kingdoms, honoured guests of the Bamula tribe. Roll Knowledge (Local) to see how much you know about local tribal politics, who hates who in the tribe, who want's to be the next chief, etc. etc."

The thing is, I could also see the Gather Information skill filling this role (knowing who's who could as well be Cha-based as opposed to Int-based, I think). Perhaps Knowledge (Local) isn't really necessary if you could use Gather Information like this?

In any case, I think Conan 2nd edition should clarify how Knowledge (Local) is supposed to work.

 

[Sutek]

GM: You see some structures on the mountain-side ahead that look like huts, making up a small villaige of some kind. Rope bridges connect the buildings and small houses at precarious and dizzying heights and angles.

PLAYER: I check to see if I know about these people.

GM: Make a Knowledge (local). [sets DC high because it is ujnlikely that the character has heard of the legends, personalities, laws, customs or traditions of this particular mountan village]

That's the way I see it working. It's a Bard Knowledge check about any of that stuff in the list.

I gotta admit, it's not clear and not appropriately named.

 

[slaughterj]

In order for Knowledge (local) to be of use, and because the description is unclear, I use it fairly broadly and consider it a sort of generalized gather information check. Specifically, if someone has been in a location for some time (any location), they make a straight check of the skill for general information on the subject they are interested in. If they just recently arrived, they make the check with a suitable penalty, figuring they picked up some info along the way perhaps, but don't know it like being there. Gather Information might be more useful in that situation because it is an active solicitation of information rather than the passive plumbing the depths of one's own mind for some recalled tidbit of information. Also, for Gather Information, I give the opportunity for more detailed information, e.g., Knowledge (local) might tell you the local baron's name, that he has a keep and a daughter, etc., but Gather Information might let you discover that the guards on the back side of the keep with the sheer wall are not alert (figuring no threat could come that way) and that might be a good way to try to enter.

 

[Sutek]

Knowledge (Local) provides a Synergy bonus to Gather Info.

So they'd have to be separate checks and separate kinds of results.

That's why I use it as a general knowledge, like "I think I've heard of these guys..." or "...there are legends of a people who..." kind of checks.

Then, when they want to confirm thier Knowledge (local), and start asking questions of people, that's when Gather kicks in.

Plus, the skill description says that it can be used to identify general stats of monsters, where I use Survival for the same result when involving animals. Also, for every 5points by which you exceed the DC, it says you "recall another piece of useful information", which sounds like just remembering stories and legends in general, and not about a local area.

Maybe Knowledge (Cultures) would be a better title.

 

[Foxworthy]

Maybe Knowledge (Cultures) would be a better title.

Knowledge (Cultures) would be a better name. I like the idea of knowledge skills, but I rarely see them used for anything but synergy. I've never once seen a player try to figure out what animal was atatcking them by using Knowledge (Nature). Though in DnD I see them used more often to figure out what monsters can do. Probably cause the Conan mentality is "I don't care what it is as long as I can kill it". Where as DnD is "I don't really care what it is, I just want to be able to avoid it's special defenses so I can kill it and take it stuff."

 

[Sutek]

I think that's because the Knowledge series is seen as a waste, more like the way D&D players see multiple languages. There's a bunch of them, and players just can't see the potential or the need to have a series of them. Having only one or two blanks for them on the character sheet doesn't help. (ahem...designers!)


Knowledge (Cultures) doesn't really thrill me as a title, because it doesn't get that idea of legends and lore, but I guess it's better than "Local". (lol)

 

[Trodax]

Maybe Knowledge (Cultures) would be a better title.

I like that better than Local as well. Good idea.
And I'm definitely going to start using the skill as location non-specific from now on. It really makes more sense than the way I've been doing it.

Probably cause the Conan mentality is "I don't care what it is as long as I can kill it". Where as DnD is "I don't really care what it is, I just want to be able to avoid it's special defenses so I can kill it and take it stuff."

This is a way of expressing Howards barbarism vs. civilization that I've never seen before.

 

[Netherek]

Here is a DB change I came up with that I think could really work, especially since I'm an advocate to drop it all together...

The Rule Of Defense allows Sorcerer's threatened by melee combatants to use free action spells as an AoO, or Spell of Opportunity.

If one allows "Spells of Opportunity" then you can have minor defensive/offensive spells that comes with learning a style in addition to the basic spell. These minor spells would be free action, and mostly defensive in nature. Using the spell guideline they would work within the feat framework and would be scaleable in relation to sorcerous power like any other existing spell.

Then they could take the Adept feat so they could use there more dangerous spells such as "death touch" when the reach appropriate levels to use a their DB, as they can cast those spells as a free action.

I could really go for this, it's stays within the level limits, more difficult to abuse (really a minor change), gives additional utility to Scholars (esp. at lower levels, works properly with existing feats without breaking the game.

So Rule of Defense would simply be that free action spells can be cast as AoO, and then utilize the The Rule of Fear which would be a variation of the Terror of the Unknown.

I have a posted my intent for the Rule of Fear in Sorcery House Rules by Netherek for reference, but any variation of Terror of Unknown or demoralization would be very appropriate to the genre.

In the end I believe this would be a better solution to DB and really captures the Howard feel.

 

[slaughterj]

Knowledge (Local) provides a Synergy bonus to Gather Info.

So they'd have to be separate checks and separate kinds of results.

That's why I use it as a general knowledge, like "I think I've heard of these guys..." or "...there are legends of a people who..." kind of checks.

Then, when they want to confirm thier Knowledge (local), and start asking questions of people, that's when Gather kicks in.

Plus, the skill description says that it can be used to identify general stats of monsters, where I use Survival for the same result when involving animals. Also, for every 5points by which you exceed the DC, it says you "recall another piece of useful information", which sounds like just remembering stories and legends in general, and not about a local area.

Maybe Knowledge (Cultures) would be a better title.

We seem to have similar uses. I don't care for the "cultures" title as a change though, because to me, "local" includes a much broader category than just the local culture, but if used as a separate knowledge skill, perhaps it would be good.

 

[slaughterj]

Here is a DB change I came up with that I think could really work, especially since I'm an advocate to drop it all together...

The Rule Of Defense allows Sorcerer's threatened by melee combatants to use free action spells as an AoO, or Spell of Opportunity.

If one allows "Spells of Opportunity" then you can have minor defensive/offensive spells that comes with learning a style in addition to the basic spell. These minor spells would be free action, and mostly defensive in nature. Using the spell guideline they would work within the feat framework and would be scaleable in relation to sorcerous power like any other existing spell.

Then they could take the Adept feat so they could use there more dangerous spells such as "death touch" when the reach appropriate levels to use a their DB, as they can cast those spells as a free action.

I could really go for this, it's stays within the level limits, more difficult to abuse (really a minor change), gives additional utility to Scholars (esp. at lower levels, works properly with existing feats without breaking the game.

So Rule of Defense would simply be that free action spells can be cast as AoO, and then utilize the The Rule of Fear which would be a variation of the Terror of the Unknown.

I have a posted my intent for the Rule of Fear in Sorcery House Rules by Netherek for reference, but any variation of Terror of Unknown or demoralization would be very appropriate to the genre.

In the end I believe this would be a better solution to DB and really captures the Howard feel.

Seems like a generally good idea, but I would make it simpler - perhaps something like "Rule of Defense: A sorceror can use any spell that typically has a casting time of 1 full action or less and harms another (including curses, etc. etc., liberal use of the term "harm") or has a defensive purpose (against, liberal use of the term) as a free action against a foe who moves within reach." This might need some massaging, as well as a supplementation of spells for certain sorcery styles, to make reasonably effective, but it would keep people from running up on sorcerors I purposefully said "moves within reach" as opposed to "triggers an AOO" or something else, to give it a defensive feel (as most foes who run up on you don't draw an AOO) and limited to defensive purposes (because it is when the foe approaches the sorceror) but not limited to purely defensive acts (i.e., a good offense can be a defense as well). This could have issues where the sorceror traps someone down a hall who has to run up to / by the sorceror, but that seems limited, and if the sorceror is already beside the person, then the person moving around the sorceror won't be moving within reach as they will already be within reach and therefore not trigger this. Perhaps also tumble should be allowed to avoid this trigger, so you could get the cool situations of the thief rolling up to the sorceror and gutting them.

 

[Netherek]

Problem with moves within reach is that a scholar can get that every round by taking a 5ft step back.

Maybe adding a clause of any who charge the caster will provoke a spell of opportunity, though that could be a little over the top.

With the setup I devised it's use falls under all current DB triggers, so it's really just a change of what DB is. By redefining it to a spell ability, and then add a selection of base spells (which is what they are basically doing by having a specific DB per style) that are free action, but then allowing other existing one to apply as well.

By treating it as a spell, it has all the conditions of spells, including limiting the amount of power that it can dish out based on level. It put's an end to repeated "fireballs" and really only targets the individual unless the said spell was an area effect spell. So ya, you might be able to utilize multiple DB's, but the overall power is spread out like any other spell.

 

[arderkrag]

Put in a feat to crease thief sneak attack damage to d8s/d10s.

Increase poison ability score damage.

Insert a monk class, and I don't mean as a borderer fighting style.

Add some prestige classes.

Up the cost of magical items.

Adjust golden wine to heal 1d8 per level, to show a more realistic percentage healed., since hp are just a representation of general bodily toughness.

 

[slaughterj]

Problem with moves within reach is that a scholar can get that every round by taking a 5ft step back.

True enough, how about against a foe who more than 5' and to within reach?

 

[Sutek]

Put in a feat to crease thief sneak attack damage to d8s/d10s.

Increase poison ability score damage.

Insert a monk class, and I don't mean as a borderer fighting style.

Add some prestige classes.

Up the cost of magical items.

Adjust golden wine to heal 1d8 per level, to show a more realistic percentage healed., since hp are just a representation of general bodily toughness.

Good suggestions. I know Mongoose Gar, the writer who admitted to possibly being the guy most likely to get assigned this 2nd edition, did say that poison would be addressed, and I think even instant death might be in order - some crap is just flat out deadly, and that's all ther is to it. Having effects like are in the Toxicant PDF (which you should go to RPGNow.com and get - best $5 I ever spent on a third party supplement!), such as nausia, dizziness, wrenching and painful convulsions, etc. would be a great idea over ONLY tweaking damage.

I'm not so sure about the healing wine, but it makes sense. I'd like to see more damage effects that only go away under certain care conditions (like certain salves made from a certain palm flaower, blah, blah, blah) but that can come down to GM fiat now as it stands; just make them have to use the Craft skill to find healing plants and stuff.

I dont like Prestige classes in Conan, but that's just because the main class aquisition system to me emulates the D&D prestige system as is because there's no more XP penalty for taking multiple classes of divergent levels. Maybe "Kits" (remember those, you D&D freaks out there?) that can tweak Classes over to one specific area of expertise, like Merchant that gain them barter and appraisal bonuses, or Scout that gainst them forraging and terrain knowledge bonuses. Not brand new Class Features like a Prestige would, but heavy bonuses if they sacrifice a level to concentrate on a Kit.

Dropping the bestiary to have it's own book is going to happen too, so that leaves lots of room for more explanation and exploration of magic items. I don't want to see +1 Swords ever in this game, but some further development of such items as adventure goals or how they contribute to Terror and Corruption woul dbe sweet.

I can't think of why a Monk Class wouldn't work. There needs to be more on the East, and a Khitai racial choice and an approprioate Classe or so wouldn't suck. There's plenty of room to expand Eastern flavor into the book without all thos bestiary pages, so that's be nice to see. But, then again, that's probably being left aside for a regional book.

 

[Netherek]

I like the existing Prestige classes, they are very specific, and are truly part of the game. That said, I like the Variant Multi-classing very much, it takes place of the usual Prestige classes. I think in most cases the multi-class with some variant is the way to go.

For further prestige classes they'd really need to be campaign/world specific (just like the current ones), and difficult to get into. I don't want the munchkin style setup of D&D, that's for sure.

 

[Foxworthy]

Insert a monk class, and I don't mean as a borderer fighting style.

I see the monk motif already done well with Scholar and Soldier mix classes. Not to mention the prestige class in Scrolls Of Skelos that cna really pump up unarmed damage.

The DnD monk class is way to wushu for Conan.

It would be a neat multiclass thing like the stuff in the Hyborian series.

 

[slaughterj]

S&P had the martial artist class.

 

[Sutek]

Oh, really? You remember the issue?