What are we doing wrong

[Adastra]

This is priceless - the MI crying about the Skinnies being overpowered, when they possess the single most powerful weapon in the game: the Pee-Wee Atomic Munition. Loaded into a Javelin launcher it can be fired up to 60", while jumping (clearing all size 6 or smaller terrain), strikes with pin-point accuracy (no deviation roll on the Artillery tables when direct-fired), actually has it's area of effect INCREASED in this mode (6" FZ vs. 5" LZ), and hits with 15 x D10+4 with Multihit AND Killshot AND Flame! Any army which can field such a weapon has no business calling any other army "overpowered".

JD has the right idea - take a good look at how the Skinnies are able to win, what weapons & tactics they're doing it with, and adjust your own tactics accordingly.

 

[tneva82]

Any army which can field such a weapon has no business calling any other army "overpowered".

Then check the price tag...

 

[DAWGIE]

:shock:

COME ON GUYS! the MI and FLEET combo is very hard to beat when used right, under the present rules.


TONY, i can tell y'all that the best way to survive on the modern battlefield is to not be seen/targeted, and if you are a target, put something solid between you and the incoming enemy fire !!!!!!!!!!

with the current rules, i do not know why the SKINNIE weapons "ignor" cover, and to be honest, i am not completely sure just how the constrictor rifle/constrictor cannon concept would work. the vague "manipulating plasma" statement i read in the rulebook makes _NO SENSE_ at all too me: plasma is HOT, around 5,000 degrees F as i recall, so plasma shots, to me, would deal out a combination of kinetic and incendiary attacks against the target . . . . not exactly the best concept for a less than lethal "capture weapon" with a "dial-up" lethal setting.

one of the reasons i have been thinking about this is that i also play CR2.0, and 5150 sci fi games, and was wondering about how to adopt the SKINNIE weapons to these rules.

the nerve gun, to me, makes a much better, general issue, less than lethal "capture gun" with the "dial-up" lethal option.

as for your recent problem, i have to admit that i have never had MI attempting to hold a berm against SKINNIES: most of the MI (except for mine: i forget to do this an awful lot) are hopping all over the place, shooting and being shot at!


MI RULES THE SKIES could be a very temperary rule of thumb if the SKINNIES are fully developed; current fluff clearly states that SKINNIE space and starships are not in the same class as FLEET warships.

in fact, the FLEET has never been able to "catch" even a SKINNIE raider ship as it boosts away with its load of captured HUMANS and etc. . .
the implication of this statement should make SICON age prematurely!


it is safe to assume that SKINNIE raider ships, like the troopers deployed from them ARE NOT as good as the regular paid SKINNIE FLEET, so the writing is on the wall: FLEET BEWARE!

and without the FLEET to control orbital space around planet that the MI is deployed on, the MI is really in deep kakky, me thinks!


DAWGIE

 

[Quark]

OK, first off- I'd like to start a petition to ban the phrase "The MI rule the skies, and the Bugs rule the tunnels." It always gets dragged out in conversations like this and it just doesn't help. Mostly because it's not really
100% true. The MI do "rule" the skies (with a tremendously unfair advantage IMO), but they are also quite capable in tunnels. The bugs have two responses to air units. The MI on the other hand have multiple ways to deal with tunneling (ways so effective in fact that tunneling was hardly used towards the end of this game's run in my area).

To that end, 'stigger is right. Use the MI's air assets to their fullest potential. A Slingshot w/the support loadout is nasty. Two are even uglier. Over-all I'd have to say that the number one tactic my group found in using MI against Skinnies (surrisingly, as we mostly used Gaurds and Venerables) was drop pods. Split up your CAPS into smaller squads (this works even better w/ Pathfinders) and drop them around the table (with drop pods) so that they will A. force the skinnies to split their fire, and B. be in positions to instantly hit important targets quickly (such as units w/AA guns). Once the Skinnies have been softened up in this manner, hit 'em with your air assets and a few Marauders. They'll be begging for mercy in no time. Be forewarned though. Even with this tactic our Skinnie VS MI games (which were split about 60-40 for the MI) tended to be two or three turn blood baths that were actually sometimes one or lost not so much because of a tactic, but rather because of who got to shoot first! Good luck.

 

[Adastra]

Any army which can field such a weapon has no business calling any other army "overpowered".

Then check the price tag...

And your point is? You can't expect to fight a Cadillac battle on a VW budget. Okay, let's play the points game for a moment. Take a Skinny Soldier squad (125 pts) with 2 extra soldiers (40 pts). To make them nice & nasty, give them a pair of constrictor cannon (40 pts) and a pair of neural beamers (80 pts), for a grand total of 285 pts for the squad.

You take them out with your Javelin-equipped cap trooper (25+40 pts) using his pee-wee nuke (300 pts) given to him by his favorite LT (115 pts) with military intel training (50 pts). You've used 530 pts of assets to take out a 285 pt enemy force. Seems like a bad deal, right? But, if by doing so you prevent that Soldier squad from taking out 400 points of friendlies (and judging from the previous posts they seem quite capable of doing just that), then you got yourself a bargain, didn't you?

You can't figure things on a straight points basis alone - you have to judge what you would gain with the nuke, and what you might lose if you don't use it. If you lobbed the nuke at a bunch of Slaves instead then it probably would be a waste, since it isn't likely the slaves could inflict enough damage to justify using the nuke to take them down. You have to make a judgement call on whether the target justifies the assets needed to take it out.

 

[Quark]

Well said Adastra!

 

[Voracioustigger]

Okay, let's play the points game for a moment.

I think I may have to steal that quote to be the title of my next article. I'm almost finished with it and it is all about playing the points game in SST (which very few players do). Remember, SST isn't anywhere near the normal "This unit costs 200pts, so it should kill 200pts to be effective" wargame. You have different missions almost every game and depending on your mission, you'll have very different objectives. In some missions, killing a 200pt squad can mean up to a 950pt swing in the battle. Let's say you're delaying... If you kill a 200pt squad that is inside your deployment zone, YOU gain 200pts (points you'd lose for the enemy squad being in your deployment zone) + 400pts (double points for killing the squad) + 150pts (+25% if you survive + 200pts (the points the enemy is denied by not making it into your deployment zone). However, killing the same squad in a last stand mission will award you 0 mission points.

Ok, well that's as much as a preview I'll give for now. Hopefully, Ian will like it and we'll see it in S&P soon.

 

[5.56 Surgeon]

Any army which can field such a weapon has no business calling any other army "overpowered".

Then check the price tag...

And your point is? You can't expect to fight a Cadillac battle on a VW budget. Okay, let's play the points game for a moment. Take a Skinny Soldier squad (125 pts) with 2 extra soldiers (40 pts). To make them nice & nasty, give them a pair of constrictor cannon (40 pts) and a pair of neural beamers (80 pts), for a grand total of 285 pts for the squad.

You take them out with your Javelin-equipped cap trooper (25+40 pts) using his pee-wee nuke (300 pts) given to him by his favorite LT (115 pts) with military intel training (50 pts). You've used 530 pts of assets to take out a 285 pt enemy force. Seems like a bad deal, right? But, if by doing so you prevent that Soldier squad from taking out 400 points of friendlies (and judging from the previous posts they seem quite capable of doing just that), then you got yourself a bargain, didn't you?

You can't figure things on a straight points basis alone - you have to judge what you would gain with the nuke, and what you might lose if you don't use it. If you lobbed the nuke at a bunch of Slaves instead then it probably would be a waste, since it isn't likely the slaves could inflict enough damage to justify using the nuke to take them down. You have to make a judgement call on whether the target justifies the assets needed to take it out.

To me, I say save nukes for brains and plasmas, in a Delay mission, you tag these targets they pay for themselves. However, while it isn't practical, nuking a tank and a squad of warriors for the sheer hell of it is a great morale booster.

 

[tneva82]

And your point is?

That nukes are hardly the ultimate solution. There's lots of other solutions that you can employ just as effectively if not more but they are not 300 pts one shot weapons.

 

[Dr. Rooster]

Hi
Recently I started building a Skinnie army to use against my Sons MI. Now we must be doing something wrong, the Skinnies keep blowing him apart, we have had three games and he gets murdered every time. Games rarely get to the second turn.
One situation game up today, he had 2 crew mounted weapons ontop of two of the rampart things that come in the box. First turn 1 unit of skinnie soldiers, and one unit of guard standing in a forest 12"-14" away, decimated him before he could fire.
It didnt seem right- the MI get no benefit really from the walls the +2 protection gets eliminated by constrictor cannon (only 2 in the skinnies),and that only seems to apply to armour saves. And if you get enough kill shots, he's dead as the MI don't have dodge. Seems to me it should be a bit harder to hit them in the first place. What are we doing wrong.
Thanks

I totally think the skinnies are fine as is. They are the masters of infantry battles, and lacking all else, that's totally fine.

I'd actually be a bit annoyed if they changed the skinnies rules again!

 

[JoseDominguez]

It's how you play them that counts, I've won games using nothing but warriors and clever tunneling. I've rarely used flight in my MI games, our group is pretty consistent, the better players win no matter what they are using.
Balance is in understanding how to play the armies. Too many players look at super powerful units and think 'that's not fair' rather than 'cool, saves me running around looking for points to kill'.
I love the 'overpowered' units, just work out what's going to be on the board and counter it..... sick of being nailed by skinnies? Drop pods are your friend, he won't dare rely on ambush etc... if he knows the minute the uber unit pops out it'll be dropped on from a great height.
Yes, skinnies can dish out the damage, they find marauders etc.. easy meat, so use lots of caps, don't go overboard on the upgrades and take as many units as you can. You'll outnumber him and he'll find it hard to take out enough models before he's over run.
The other problem is thinking of taking something out in terms of 'points for points' is it worth nuking a brain? points wise there seems to be no real net gain. But think about it, he loses most of his next turn, so it's worth it.Your 300 points cripple the bug player. USe nukes vs skinnies, it will stop him from creating those tooled up units with lots of points in one place. You don't have to use nukes every game, but do it a couple of times and skinny players will have to spread the points more. Retake the balance e.g. if you never use hoppers/ripplers, then your opponent will never need to worry about aerial intercepts, so he will rule the skies. One game, just take as many hoppers/ripplers as you can afford, you'll wipe out his flyers and can then land and claim VPs (MI air assets never count for territory VPs) Next game he'll need to buy AA and not rely on his air assets, you won't even need to buy the hoppers/ripplers.
Use your options, if you don't then regular opponents just need to beat one army, that kills game balance.