Was Conan Good?

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Well, Im in the mood for a little discussion, so, please, Id be happy if you joined me.

Conan, hes a mystery all right, but is he 'good'? A hero? A jackass?

I dont accept such cartoon labels as 'Neutral' or worse, 'Chaotic Neutral'. In this life, you cant go through it without making some tough decisions. Especially, if the world is full of simple solutions like in the Hyborain Age. Would Conan leave a girl who was being attacked if it didnt suit his purpose to save her? Did he do that kind of thing 'off camera'? So we are only left with the honourable bits? Was Conan a racist?

Is he merely an 'existential superman', beyond human moral codes? Is he amoral?

I actually see a lot of similarity when comparing Conan to K E Wagners Kane character. Now Wagners Kane was undoubtedly 'evil', although he displayed some characteristics like Conan, and some like Elric. But Kane was cast down by God for the primal sin of fratricide. 'Tortured' with the 'curse' of immortality. But he seems to have a similar moral code to Conan's. He would intervene in the same way that Conan does, when confronted by violence towards a stranger. I think Conan often reacts to these situations, in the hope that he can benefit from them. Is that girl a princess? Can I sell her to someone I know when Ive finished with her? Etc..

Racism is a thonry issue. I suppose Howards books would only be tagged as 'racist' if someone was offended by them. But, you know, people use being 'offended' as a tool against free speech often.

Would you want to live next door to Conan? He would have prostitutes back almost every night, except when he goes through his 'sullen eyed' phases. Would he nick your CD player? Could he get insurance for his car? Would he drive a car? Would his approach to technology be like the worst kind of Ludite? Would he see the need for a Blackberry?

Could he survive in the modern world at all? I dont think so. I think he would serve time in prison, no doubt. And, I guess he would experiment with drugs. But would he be a supplier? Anything for profit if youre amoral and an existential superman.

Would he live in California? Jogging down the beach every morning? Would he be tempted by steroids? It would make him even sharper, fitter.

What kind of clothes would Conan wear if he were alive in the modern world? Would he be a label whore? Or just buy his stuff from Gap.

Conan is painted out as being perfectly adapted for his world. What would that make him if he lived in our world? Would he be like a business man? Or a lumberjack? Would he attempt to seize power in this world? He would have to be a lot more crafty if he wanted to do that. He would need paper qualifications, certainly. Or have a dad who could give him a good job.

What do you think Conans IQ would be? Do you think he would score low? Maybe he would score low on IQ, but have the reactions of a cat.

Would he be a body builder? Would he beat Arnie in competitions do you think? Would he like New Yorker type girls, or chubby girls? Would he get married? Would he still believe in Crom? What would he think of space exploration?

Do you think he would pay taxes? Or do you think he would avoid them and live in the desert? Or a trailer? Would he get cable? Would he like Nirvana?

You decide!

 

[Demetrio]

Essentially Conan is more moral than not, though his morality wouldn't do well in the C20 west. He's certainly not amoral. Not at any point, save possibly when sailing with Belit.

He is indisputably loyal to his friends and those employers who have 'played fair' with him, and also shows a (perhaps surprising) consideration to women, whether he is beholden to them or not.

He's utterly ruthless toward his enemies or those who have done him a bad turn (though women will get off pretty lightly, men will die, and perhaps nastily).

Was he a racist? Well the two remarks he makes in the Vale of Lost Women wouldn't really pass muster before a tribunal... They are, I think, isolated examples though. He's perhaps more prejudiced against certain peoples than strictly racist - though I can't see him saying 'I'd not leave a white girl in the hands of the Vanir'.

 

[Ichabod]

Do you consider the average person "good"?

While I have problems with D&D's alignment system because it's overly rigid in its extremeness and the old definition of neutral was just bizarre, it's not unreasonable for mapping people out relative to each other if you want some sort of guidelines that bear no resemblance to reality.

The thing is is that real people are complex in their moralities. Real people might act like jerks to everyone outside of their friends and family but be completely supportive to those. Real people might not pay taxes on internet purchases but donate to charities, may not stop to help someone on the side of the road but search the neighborhood for a missing pet, may dent someone's car that parks badly but help someone move. Those are rather mundane, but how many historical figures did great things for some and terrible things for others? How many leaders look after their consituents while committing adultery?

If you want a quick example of normal complexity, what about Steve McNair (assuming people follow sports)?

"Good" people, in the real world, can hate. "Evil" people, in the real world, can love. Nevermind that much of what society decides is good is what is to the benefit of society, e.g. helping others is good which is of obvious benefit to having cohesive societies. But, what do good and evil really mean?

Codes of honor out of Conan, Honor out of L5R, even Humanity out of Vampire are less troublesome than trying to figure out whether someone, something, or actions are good or evil. If nothing else, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions, so they say.

 

[Da Boss]

Many interesting questions!

Conan IMHO is as much made by his world as he made for it - so a Conan in the modern age is not "Conan" - a bit of a cop out I guess

is he good - well he doesn't seem to get any complaints from the women - ah I see what you mean.

Is he a good man - I think yes for the most part but also unforgiving, brutal, uncouth, quick to anger, unforgiving.

Don't cross him - he'll strive hard to pay you back in kind (at the least) although as noted women get off very lightly in comparison to a man who attempts to kill or betray him. I think if he saw a woman being attacked he would intervene and often does so at risk to himslef or if the woman has already betrayed or tried to have him killed.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Do you consider the average person "good"?

While I have problems with D&D's alignment system because it's overly rigid in its extremeness and the old definition of neutral was just bizarre, it's not unreasonable for mapping people out relative to each other if you want some sort of guidelines that bear no resemblance to reality.

The thing is is that real people are complex in their moralities. Real people might act like jerks to everyone outside of their friends and family but be completely supportive to those. Real people might not pay taxes on internet purchases but donate to charities, may not stop to help someone on the side of the road but search the neighborhood for a missing pet, may dent someone's car that parks badly but help someone move. Those are rather mundane, but how many historical figures did great things for some and terrible things for others? How many leaders look after their consituents while committing adultery?

If you want a quick example of normal complexity, what about Steve McNair (assuming people follow sports)?

"Good" people, in the real world, can hate. "Evil" people, in the real world, can love. Nevermind that much of what society decides is good is what is to the benefit of society, e.g. helping others is good which is of obvious benefit to having cohesive societies. But, what do good and evil really mean?

Codes of honor out of Conan, Honor out of L5R, even Humanity out of Vampire are less troublesome than trying to figure out whether someone, something, or actions are good or evil. If nothing else, the road to Hell is paved with good intentions, so they say.

Hi Ichabod, dont believe weve spoke.

Ah, interesting, you start by questioning the very nature of goodness.

I'll reply, but first I'll just say two things. This question should be 'Is Conan Good?' Not 'Was Conan Good?', blast it. Secondly, yes, I follow sports but British ones, so your analogy may pass me by.

Right, goodness. Its a difficult concept, thats why, you can possibly get a lot more from thinking about what clothes Conan would wear. Probably easier to guess than wondering if he was 'good' or not.

I suppose, being a literary character, his purpose is to display Howards grasp of these concepts. Did Howard think Conan was good? I think Howard probably thought that Conan had some kind of moral or cultural code, but these arent neccessarily good. The practice of cutting a thiefs hand off is a moral code, but is it a good one?

People are complex perhaps, because of their bravery, or lack of. People will help look for a lost cat, becasue it doesnt present any threat to them. Some would, one evening, confront muggers who are attacking a stranger, then the next night, be too concerned for personal safety to act.

Thing is, Conan has no fear, (if we discount his irrational fear of the supernatural). So, in that sense, he is equipped better than the average man to combat evil. People have to be judged by their actions. Because he is more capable of confronting 'evil', he has the moral obligation to attempt to destroy it.

Is his desire for a kingdom motivated by the desire to bring freedom and equality to as many people as possible? I think, subconsciously, it may be the case. Conan is displayed as seeing absolutely no value or worth in material things. He covets them, but he doesnt value them when he possesses them. This leads to sulleness, and it leads Conan to constantly seek out further, more daring deeds. He does not value what he can possess.

Thats why there have been comments about Conans feelings towards Belit on these very forums. Conans thoughts and feelings are vastly complex, because, once he obtains something, something apparently unobtainable, he knows he values it less. Difficult women are an enigma to him. But he knows, deep down, everyone has a price. Everyone can be bought. This makes him desolate, because he knows what people are bought with, is worthless. So even with women he would otherwise put on pedestals for their beauty, he is only too aware that they can be bought with worthless things.

Conan cannot be bought. He understands more than the civilised man, in this regard. Conan is the avatar of incorruptability. No one can own him, change his morals, his opinions, or his naive truthfulness. He is man made god. He is incorruptable and alone, with no need of anything or anyone.

Conan is beyond good and evil, he is the personification of mans ambition and his potential. Howard was a pretty good writer.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

And, a further point, thats why Conan could not exist in the 21st C. Because modern life compromises us and our beliefs, and our desire to sort things out by direct means. We solve our dilemmas by proxy.

I think this is what Howard was writing about when he talked about the degredation of civilisation. The pure action cannot exist in the modern world, with all of its complexities and its debt-of-gratitude connections.

How far we have fallen, sitting in our boxes, worrying about death. I think Howard was more like us than Conan, but he knew or had a glimpse of life as it should be lived. Even though,. Howard himself sat in his box and worried about his death.

 

[David St-Michel]

Conan is above everything else, totally and completely open about what he is.

Conan is Cimmerian. He is moody, savage, unapologetic, unforgiving, uncompromising. There is one singular way to live ; his own. Qoe to you if you do not follow that path.

Conan is a fighter. He was born on a battlefield, and was already a proven combattant when he was in his teens. With a back to his wall he can kill (and has killed) hundreds of men, and more then his fair share of creatures that cannot be described as men. Or women, for that matter. He is a mass murderer in every plausible sense of the word.

Conan is probably the single most gifted mortal of his age. He has strangled the Black Strangler, has out-thieved the best thieved, and out-fought the best fighters. Everything others can do, he can do better. I believe that Conan carries himself with pride on the verge of becoming sheer arrogance. He knows he's good ; he knows he's better then YOU, period. And he can't wait to show it. Conan dosen't back down from a fight because he dosen't have to ; compassion is a luxury reserved for those who serve him, those few he considers friends, and women.

I believe Conan was good only to the extend of goodness in the Hyborian world : remember, this is the same world that is described in the Player's Handbook as being filled with selfish people who'll do whatever to get themselves ahead. A place brimming with thieves, brigands, bravos, thugs, sorcerors, demons, witches, temptresses, liars, and so on. Entire races are simply described as purely evil and wicked. So that gives a LOT of leeway in how to describe something as good or bad.

I believe that Conan was good because sometimes, just sometimes, he cared. He stopped his rampage and realised that there just might be another path. In the Vale of the Lost Women, he decided that he wasn't going to leave the girl to be eaten by that Star Vampire or whatever the hell that thing was. He decided he wasn't going to force himself on the chick afterwards. He even decided that he was going to bring her back home, just because he felt like it.

And this is mere minutes/hours after having massacered an entire village of Black Kingdom tribesmen with his own henchmen.

Conan, I believe, is an anti-hero. Heroism is thrust upon him. He killed the king of Aquilonia for himself. Then, he noticed that millions depended on him. And so he tried to do the best he can with what he had at the moment.

He dosen't negociate ; he kills. He dosen't try to find another way out ; he kills. There's something that he dosen't like ; you can damn well believe that he'll slash and hack the hell out of it, if it is at all possible. He's always number one, always in command, always in control, and he always comes out on top.

He found himself in a lost city with two old tirbes killing each other to the very last man (Red Nails). One of these men befriended him, and Conan stayed with him until the last moment of that man's life. He didn't HAVE to stay there ; he CHOSE to stay there.

I think it's fairly difficult to stamp a "good" or "bad" sticker on him. As much as it is difficult to put such on any character who isn't stuck in an Aligment system.

My players, in my Conan game, are what I consider "good". They have killed over eighty men thus far between the three of them. Some in rather gruesome fashions. They've threatened people, bullied some, lied, cheated and stole their way out of trouble.

Yet, they've bought slaves only to free them minutes later. They've helped street urchins and total strangers because their instinct told them to. They've given away thousands of pieces of silver, and even brought people on the path of Corruption back towards a healthier life.

So I say that Conan was what he was, period. He didn't try to give himself any titles, except that of king ; and even then, he never really comported himself in a kingly fashion. He was a leader of men, probably one of the greatest leaders of men of his age. He's brought tribes, villages, and even countries under his command.

Conan is a force of nature. It is like to ask if a tornado is good, or evil. it is what it is, and Conan is what he is.

 

[Jeffreywns]

Conan is honorable. dependable and unswerving in his beliefs. In other words good if you share his values.
Evil if his views conflict with yours. Try vanquishing him with holy words if all elsa fails.

 

[Bygoneyrs]

Conan is the Hero, regardless of Good or Evil stamp!

Penn

 

[treeplanter]

I would love to be like Conan, by Crom!

 

[Scorpion13]

though I can't see him saying 'I'd not leave a white girl in the hands of the Vanir'.

I would be surprised if he didnt. Cimmerians as a whole really dont care for the Vanir.

I cant tell if he's good. He's honest though. You gotta give him that.

 

[David St-Michel]

That much is true. Conan is indeed the hero... even if "hero" is more "protagonist" in its sense.