wargames workshop tourney-?

[lastbesthope]

I'd say both theories are flawed, too much H2G2 logic.

LBH

 

[Burger]

Well mine works and is tested

 

[katadder]

from 2 lanes to 1 lane? surely that results in a zero speed cos everyone breaks hard when someone races down the lane then trys to cut in last minute.

 

[lastbesthope]

Well mine works and is tested

But if the number of cars leaving the lights is constant when you jump to one lane instead of 2, it takes twice as long for them to cross the line.

LBH

 

[Burger]

Well mine works and is tested

But if the number of cars leaving the lights is constant when you jump to one lane instead of 2, it takes twice as long for them to cross the line.

LBH

Au contraire. When the number of cars leaving the lights is a constant, the cars per second passing any point is also a constant. Which means with 1 lane instead of 2, the cars must be travelling twice as fast to achieve the same number of cars per second.

 

[Hash]

Well mine works and is tested

But if the number of cars leaving the lights is constant when you jump to one lane instead of 2, it takes twice as long for them to cross the line.

LBH

Au contraire. When the number of cars leaving the lights is a constant, the cars per second passing any point is also a constant. Which means with 1 lane instead of 2, the cars must be travelling twice as fast to achieve the same number of cars per second.

Which by extrapolation leads to infinite speed! Ahem...of course that assumes that the cars leaving the lights is a constant...Or to put it another way: 10 Cars, length X leave the lights in 2 lanes, distance all other cars move forward is equal to approx:

Case 1: 10X (total distance) / 2 (no. of lanes) = 5X (each car moves forward)
Assuming Cars leaving the lights is a constant and remains at 10 then:

Case 2: 10X (total distance) / 1 (no. of lanes) = 10X (each car moves forward).
Assuming this movement takes the same amount of time you have doubled your speed! (Burger theory)

Or if you're a little crazy and high on traffic fumes at the back of the car you can make the "logical" step forward.

Case 3: Case 2: 10X (total distance) / 0 (no. of lanes) = InfiniteX (each car moves forward) - assuming same time period...infinite speed! (Hash theory...no that's not what I was taking at the time!)

...ok I need to get out more :: sigh ::

 

[Burger]

Division by zero does not give infinity... it gives "undefined"

Though your theory does work for small X, and as X tends to zero, speed will tend towards infinity.

I guess I should have put "lanes is a positive non-zero integer" in my original theory

 

[Hash]

Though your theory does work for small X, and as X tends to zero, speed will tend towards infinity.

To be fair that's what I said in the car and it was my way of ridiculing your theory! Actually the "flaw" in your theory is the assumption that the number of cars passing the lights at each change is a constant, there is absolutely no basis for that assumption!

 

[Burger]

Thats not a flaw in the theory! That is an assumption on which the theory is based. If the assumption is true, then the theory will hold.

The only question remains is whether the assumption occurs in reality... and although individual lights changes may allow slightly different numbers of cars through each time, it will be pretty constant on average, since the lights are on green and red for fixed lengths of time.

 

[Reaverman]

Braaaaiiiinnnnns :x

 

[Locutus9956]

That is, technically true I suppose however it will have the additional effect of doubling the physical LENGTH of the queue thus though your are travelling twice as fast you will still have to queue for the same amount of TIME.

If you go down to 0 lanes then you would theoretically have to have cars travelling ifinitely fast to maintaint the same rate of cars per second but by contrast they would have to queue for an infiite distance.

In fact as far as I can see theres 2 major flaws with the original theory:

1) the assumption that the number of cars past that point will remain constant. This one is NOT actually a bad assumption though as at the end of the queue cars WILL leave as fast as the lights will let them and isnt likely to slow down dependant on how the queue functions behind them.

2) the BIG assumption that in my eyes is definitively wrong though is that the DISTANCE is constant, if you change the number of lanes the length of the queue with the same number of cars is going to change. Simple as that.

ps. How the hell did this get started anyway? This is so far off topic I cant even concieve of how this relates to B5.....oh wait just remembered the topic, it was discussing how to get to a tourney right? Still this is an impressively off topic swerve even by our normal standards

 

[Burger]

Ohh yes of course none of it takes queue length into account. But when you join the back of a queue, you don't care how long it gets behind you, and you can't do anything about how long it is in front of you.

My point is that when I am in a queue and it goes down from 2 lanes to 1, many people will start swearing and cursing. Whereas I am pleased, because it means we are going to double in speed, and get out of the queue faster than if it remained at 2 lanes all the way to the traffic lights.

It all started when I stated my theory and subsequently had it empirically proven, on the way back from a Mongoose tourney

 

[Greg Smith]

Don't you know that whichever lane you chose to be in, you will get stuck behind an octagenarian in a Micra.

 

[Hash]

Thats not a flaw in the theory! That is an assumption on which the theory is based. If the assumption is true, then the theory will hold.

The only question remains is whether the assumption occurs in reality... and although individual lights changes may allow slightly different numbers of cars through each time, it will be pretty constant on average, since the lights are on green and red for fixed lengths of time.

The length of time green and red is fixed sure, but the speed of the cars passing through them is not. Reducing the number of lanes can alter the overall mean spped of traffic and therefore the assumption that the number of cars passing through the lights at change is a constant is not valid in most circumstances!

We were already "close" to the lights when your theory was "empirically proven" and as we didn't actually make ANY measurements, your assertion that it is proven is also invalid IMO There are many other factors to take into account with two lanes as well (people cutting in etc) that make it considerably more complex. I repeat my observation at the time that your theory is absurd

 

[Burger]

Thats not a flaw in the theory! That is an assumption on which the theory is based. If the assumption is true, then the theory will hold.

The only question remains is whether the assumption occurs in reality... and although individual lights changes may allow slightly different numbers of cars through each time, it will be pretty constant on average, since the lights are on green and red for fixed lengths of time.

The length of time green and red is fixed sure, but the speed of the cars passing through them is not. Reducing the number of lanes can alter the overall mean spped of traffic and therefore the assumption that the number of cars passing through the lights at change is a constant is not valid in most circumstances!

No no no. The lights are on red for a fixed time, and green for a fixed time. When they are on red, the traffic is stopped, or at least all the traffic which is going to get through on the next green phase is stopped. So each time they turn green, the traffic is moving from a stop to a constant speed (for example 30mph limit through the lights). The number of lanes is irrelevant. The number of cars getting though the lights is a constant in each green phase, therefore the average cars per second leaving the queue is a constant. Of course you can say that sometimes a big slow lorry will cause less cars to get through due to its slower acceleration... but, since the lorry is so long and the whole thing moves together, it will cause less "ripple effect" back through the queue. Also big slow lorries are more likely to jump the red.

 

[Hash]

Thats not a flaw in the theory! That is an assumption on which the theory is based. If the assumption is true, then the theory will hold.

The only question remains is whether the assumption occurs in reality... and although individual lights changes may allow slightly different numbers of cars through each time, it will be pretty constant on average, since the lights are on green and red for fixed lengths of time.

The length of time green and red is fixed sure, but the speed of the cars passing through them is not. Reducing the number of lanes can alter the overall mean spped of traffic and therefore the assumption that the number of cars passing through the lights at change is a constant is not valid in most circumstances!

No no no. The lights are on red for a fixed time, and green for a fixed time. When they are on red, the traffic is stopped, or at least all the traffic which is going to get through on the next green phase is stopped. So each time they turn green, the traffic is moving from a stop to a constant speed (for example 30mph limit through the lights). The number of lanes is irrelevant. The number of cars getting though the lights is a constant in each green phase, therefore the average cars per second leaving the queue is a constant. Of course you can say that sometimes a big slow lorry will cause less cars to get through due to its slower acceleration... but, since the lorry is so long and the whole thing moves together, it will cause less "ripple effect" back through the queue. Also big slow lorries are more likely to jump the red.

Much as I give you kudos for roping me into a discussion regarding que theory on the boards and practical applications - let's leave this thread for those others who want to come to the Wargames Workshop tourney eh? I'll have this debate with you off line


For those interested look at this:

http://www.wargamesworkshop.com/GameShop/GameShopHome.aspx

Wargames Workshop is hosting an ACTA tourney: 31/03/2007

[TAKEN FROM THEIR SITE]

10.00 Sign up, 10.15 start! START
B5 ACTA TOURNAMENT!
5 Point Raid, Prizes to be won!!!

£5 ENTRY, We are holding a Babylon 5 "A Call to Arms" Tournament. 5 Point Raid, you must bring all correct models to take part. (cards and the old smaller ships are okay too, if you want, but new models are much nicer)

Babylon 5 a Call to Arms Tournament

Rules: A Call to Arms revised, Sky Full of Stars, and Armageddon rules will be used in this tournament. New ship stats provided in Signs & Portents, such as the new Drazi varients and the latest version of the Sagittarius will be used. If you plan on using any Signs & Portents ships please make sure you have a copy of those rules with you. (or you will not be able to use them!)Special fleet lists from Signs & Portents will not be allowed in this tournament (i.e. no Argents Crusaders or Ghosts of Omelos, but official list such as the Pakmara are allowed). The only playable scenarios are Annihilation, Call to Arms, and Space Superiority. (but with a time limit) Every player will play each scenario at least once. Please bring 2 copies of your fleet list with you, one for the judges and one for you.


Wargames Workshop
7 Mill Road
Cranfield,
Bedfordshire,
MK43 0JG

Tel: 01234 757878
email: info@wargamesworkshop.co.uk

See you there!

 

[lastbesthope]

Well mine works and is tested

But if the number of cars leaving the lights is constant when you jump to one lane instead of 2, it takes twice as long for them to cross the line.

LBH

Au contraire. When the number of cars leaving the lights is a constant, the cars per second passing any point is also a constant.

Only if, which you did not ewxplicitly state, the time taken for the defined number of cars to leave the lights is also constant. You did not specify that the time taken for that number of cars to pass the lights ewas also to remain constant. Given that additional assumption, then yes you are correct.

LBH

 

[Tank]

So quick check on who is planning on going to this

obviously I and the Ad will be travelling up collecting TGT and bringing a newbie as well

I hope to do better than my joint second to last of the previous event :lol:

 

[Greg Smith]

I am.

 

[TGT]

I guess its 1 VP per flight?