Vorlon Tips
- Thread starter Fugitive Unknown
- Start date
maybe something about war level with about 10 fighters - a LC conversion
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
Vorlons can be fun, though you may not find a lot of opponents. The old box set is nice, though as noted before, not enough destroyers and fighters as well.
As for painting, I went for white primer, several ink washes and dry brushes went into them. I did several ships in similar color schemes.
Have fun with yours!
As for painting, I went for white primer, several ink washes and dry brushes went into them. I did several ships in similar color schemes.
Have fun with yours!
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
Ripple said:
It can be done. Not a lot of subtlety but it can be done.
In my defence,the cover was only on one side of the board and the vorlon fleet was in the board area without cover in.there was a good 20" of open board between the vorlon main fleet and the closest cover and that was at the end of turn 2.Talk about the opening scene of saving private ryan. :lol:
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
meglos said:
Well. We went nutzo one night and put 8 Armageddon points on a 4X6 table. Shadows vs Vorlons and allies. I only had 5 FAP of Vorlons so I made up the rest of the fleet with ISA and Minbari. The game went for about five or six turns before we called it quits (er, time to go to Hooters)
Since the Shadows were Mastering hyperspace it got a little messy. Only half of their fleet started on the table and the rest got dropped behind the allied fleet about turn three. It was a fun game and quite managable.
Big games work just fine... just commenting that level of play changes the maneuver dynamic a bit as there is less space to play go hide the <ship of choice>. We've found the bigger the fleets the more important long range and big arcs are, and fleets that do good 'fly through' moves suffer a bit more. At least until space clears out a bit.
Ripple
Ripple
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
Ripple said:
Yep. And White Star squadrons seem to come into their own when they aren't the only target on the table...
In light of todays performance with 1 Armageddon Vorlons vs. mixed league - my main tip for Vorlon players is:
Don't Bother.
I wont elaborate too much, for fear that the vitriol will melt both my keyboard and your monitor.
But:
Why do Vorlon ships explode now when previous reasoning was that all ancient ships do not?
Why have the damage scores been reduced so heavily - Adaptive armour is not equal to doubling your damage, not when every ship and its dog has DD and TD weapons these days.
When you're up against raid level ships which match your war level ships' damage score (actually exceed it, IIRC) and match or exceed your hull score, /and/ can CAB and ignore 1/3 of your damage...
Vorlons either need more damage, or everyone else needs to take a 1/3 penalty to their hull tracks.
In line with above, why has self repair been dropped so severely?
In line with all the above, why do ancient ships still have to roll for crew quality (for the 4 or so special actions they are permitted to use) when they have no crews?
Why can you now shoot into asteroid fields, and why do they offer no physical protection to ships?
Also - who thought up the bright idea of letting scouts target lock, and perform special actions, and not need line of sight to their target to actually lock them?
Don't Bother.
I wont elaborate too much, for fear that the vitriol will melt both my keyboard and your monitor.
But:
Why do Vorlon ships explode now when previous reasoning was that all ancient ships do not?
Why have the damage scores been reduced so heavily - Adaptive armour is not equal to doubling your damage, not when every ship and its dog has DD and TD weapons these days.
When you're up against raid level ships which match your war level ships' damage score (actually exceed it, IIRC) and match or exceed your hull score, /and/ can CAB and ignore 1/3 of your damage...
Vorlons either need more damage, or everyone else needs to take a 1/3 penalty to their hull tracks.
In line with above, why has self repair been dropped so severely?
In line with all the above, why do ancient ships still have to roll for crew quality (for the 4 or so special actions they are permitted to use) when they have no crews?
Why can you now shoot into asteroid fields, and why do they offer no physical protection to ships?
Also - who thought up the bright idea of letting scouts target lock, and perform special actions, and not need line of sight to their target to actually lock them?
Yeah, have to agree with this!Alexb83 said:
Well the damage system has been changed. Instead of taking on average 3.5 damage per hit (or 5 for precise), you now take 1. So you can expect the damage values to be divided by roughly 3.5...Alexb83 said:
Don't really follow your logic here: Adaptive armour is exactly equal to doubling hits against DD! If you didn't have adaptive armour you'd have taken twice as much damage. It only makes a difference if you get lots of rounding working for/against you, eg lots of small ships or fighters doing 1 damage each, AA does nothing, you still get 1 damage.Alexb83 said:
Same as above: your self-repair is now 3.5 times more effective than before due to the damage system. Going from 4d6 under the old damage system to 2d6 under the new, is actually a rather big boost for the Light Cruiser!Alexb83 said:
Agreed, this does suck.Alexb83 said:
Agreed too, scouting should be a special action. And need LOS.Alexb83 said:
Re: the damage thingy.
Let's use the example from today, with a Kaliva (or whatever the name is now for the Brakiri Lance of Doom Battle level ship) vs. a Light Cruiser of the Vorlon variety. I really do dislike 'the maths approach' as frankly it assumes too many things to just say 'you have effectively 2 times the damage of anyone else'... it assumes no scouts, it doesn't factor in that the Brakiri outrange, outnumber and so forth. I've yet to see an 'average' game of ACTA.
Also, I have serious reservations about the idea that 2e ship stats were designed on a mathematical basis - I think it was more of a 3am stoned board meeting, 'Mr Dog sounds like a good name for dog food' approach.
As it was, in this game everything that could go right for the Brakiri based on criticals absolutely did - twice in the game, light cruisers lost a 'random' arc, another lost adaptive armour, got its 'engines' knocked out, a 4+ to shoot (which it failed) and that's not even going into the -s to speed and AD they took. Meanwhile, even with an obscene run of beam AD on the one occasion that the Vorlons actually did manage to do something competent, they failed monumentaly to even cripple a Brakiri that had been subjected to (over 3 turns) no less than 18 hits from a QD beam. Not for lack of damage to hull or crew, but due to the fact that the Brakiri could ignore 1/3 of it.
And yes, lots of rounding /was/ working against the AA - thanks to the triple damage weapons, and the fighters (let's not get going on the reduction of the vorlon antifighter down to 2 inches - sub all the bloody fighters' shooting ranges!)
Also, as an aside, the Vorlon fleet selection at 1 armageddon has been completely arsed up by the new points splitting rules - they're forced to either take everything above raid level, or everything below, since there are no FAP splits which allow for anything else.
Back to the maths..
The Kaliva has +1 hull and +9 on top of the 55 damage which the VLC has, IIRC.
Two Kalivas to one light cruiser, then, 10AD between them of TD, SAP.
The Vorlon war level ship can hit, with 6AD, an average of 4.5 dice (let's round down for the sake of simplicity) of QD Beam, based on flat 4s to hit. An average minimum of 16/16 against any one target without thinking about crits, which, if you were taking averages, you would get about 1pointsomething of for those dice.
Lop off a third of that from close all blast doors, again, assuming that the Vorlon player actually got to shoot, and that he shot one target.
Then the Brakiri shoot back. 10 AD, hitting on 3s, we'll ignore the possibility that they can have a scout sat behind some asteroids rolling target locks on 2+s for the sake of this comparison.
That's something to the order of 6 or 7 hits (depending on how you round) TD - so a minimum of 3 and a maximum of 10 damage not factoring in crits, after TD and adaptive armour are factored in. Vorlon could get lucky and repair all of that, and a minimum of 2 - doesn't look too bad on paper, does it?
All this /assumes/ that the Vorlon a. won initiative and b. the Brakiri player was stupid enough not to have sat back and used his 5inch range advantage, and the fact that the Vorlon can't do all-power-to-engines to get a free round of shooting.
But then factor in criticals. The fact that the vorlons have only one weapon system, and 5 traits - 2 of which (self repair, adaptive armour) are the only things which move them to remote parity with the other ships (which beat them on hull and damage one PL lower!).
There are no less than 4 results on the crit table that can remove those traits, and experience shows that they do not come up once in a blue moon (I have seen at least one 6,6 crit in /every/ game of ACTA I have ever played).
The bottom line becomes, not that the ships aren't inherently tough (I still argue that maths does not bottom line this issue and allow for simply halving the ships damage, especially not when it's been lumped with hull 5) but that they're too easy to cripple.
The Vorlon damage system had issues before with the 1d6 model for damage. I think now that it's gone back to 'ammunition explosions' and 'capacitors damaged' on ships which don't have ammunition or capacitors, it's got even more.
Bring back 1e, that's all I can say... it was a little wobbly, but it wasn't this broken.
Let's use the example from today, with a Kaliva (or whatever the name is now for the Brakiri Lance of Doom Battle level ship) vs. a Light Cruiser of the Vorlon variety. I really do dislike 'the maths approach' as frankly it assumes too many things to just say 'you have effectively 2 times the damage of anyone else'... it assumes no scouts, it doesn't factor in that the Brakiri outrange, outnumber and so forth. I've yet to see an 'average' game of ACTA.
Also, I have serious reservations about the idea that 2e ship stats were designed on a mathematical basis - I think it was more of a 3am stoned board meeting, 'Mr Dog sounds like a good name for dog food' approach.
As it was, in this game everything that could go right for the Brakiri based on criticals absolutely did - twice in the game, light cruisers lost a 'random' arc, another lost adaptive armour, got its 'engines' knocked out, a 4+ to shoot (which it failed) and that's not even going into the -s to speed and AD they took. Meanwhile, even with an obscene run of beam AD on the one occasion that the Vorlons actually did manage to do something competent, they failed monumentaly to even cripple a Brakiri that had been subjected to (over 3 turns) no less than 18 hits from a QD beam. Not for lack of damage to hull or crew, but due to the fact that the Brakiri could ignore 1/3 of it.
And yes, lots of rounding /was/ working against the AA - thanks to the triple damage weapons, and the fighters (let's not get going on the reduction of the vorlon antifighter down to 2 inches - sub all the bloody fighters' shooting ranges!)
Also, as an aside, the Vorlon fleet selection at 1 armageddon has been completely arsed up by the new points splitting rules - they're forced to either take everything above raid level, or everything below, since there are no FAP splits which allow for anything else.
Back to the maths..
The Kaliva has +1 hull and +9 on top of the 55 damage which the VLC has, IIRC.
Two Kalivas to one light cruiser, then, 10AD between them of TD, SAP.
The Vorlon war level ship can hit, with 6AD, an average of 4.5 dice (let's round down for the sake of simplicity) of QD Beam, based on flat 4s to hit. An average minimum of 16/16 against any one target without thinking about crits, which, if you were taking averages, you would get about 1pointsomething of for those dice.
Lop off a third of that from close all blast doors, again, assuming that the Vorlon player actually got to shoot, and that he shot one target.
Then the Brakiri shoot back. 10 AD, hitting on 3s, we'll ignore the possibility that they can have a scout sat behind some asteroids rolling target locks on 2+s for the sake of this comparison.
That's something to the order of 6 or 7 hits (depending on how you round) TD - so a minimum of 3 and a maximum of 10 damage not factoring in crits, after TD and adaptive armour are factored in. Vorlon could get lucky and repair all of that, and a minimum of 2 - doesn't look too bad on paper, does it?
All this /assumes/ that the Vorlon a. won initiative and b. the Brakiri player was stupid enough not to have sat back and used his 5inch range advantage, and the fact that the Vorlon can't do all-power-to-engines to get a free round of shooting.
But then factor in criticals. The fact that the vorlons have only one weapon system, and 5 traits - 2 of which (self repair, adaptive armour) are the only things which move them to remote parity with the other ships (which beat them on hull and damage one PL lower!).
There are no less than 4 results on the crit table that can remove those traits, and experience shows that they do not come up once in a blue moon (I have seen at least one 6,6 crit in /every/ game of ACTA I have ever played).
The bottom line becomes, not that the ships aren't inherently tough (I still argue that maths does not bottom line this issue and allow for simply halving the ships damage, especially not when it's been lumped with hull 5) but that they're too easy to cripple.
The Vorlon damage system had issues before with the 1d6 model for damage. I think now that it's gone back to 'ammunition explosions' and 'capacitors damaged' on ships which don't have ammunition or capacitors, it's got even more.
Bring back 1e, that's all I can say... it was a little wobbly, but it wasn't this broken.
Don't really follow your logic here: Adaptive armour is exactly equal to doubling hits against DD! If you didn't have adaptive armour you'd have taken twice as much damage. It only makes a difference if you get lots of rounding working for/against you, eg lots of small ships or fighters doing 1 damage each, AA does nothing, you still get 1 damage.Burger said:
'ammo explosions' and 'capacitor damage' are just words, you could throw in anything for the fluff... its the stat effects that matter. I've argued it both ways at times (how does a bigger beam make my ammo explode more than the abbai single damage one?) but you have to try to separate the fluff and the effect a bit.
As for the rest... I do tend to agree with you on some points. The current system did not do the Vorlons any huge favores, but aside from the FAP split (only really bad under 1 point games) it's not the end of the world for them.
Ripple
As for the rest... I do tend to agree with you on some points. The current system did not do the Vorlons any huge favores, but aside from the FAP split (only really bad under 1 point games) it's not the end of the world for them.
Ripple
They are just words, but the system does have to be linked with common sense - and with the series and what we know of the ships, if it's going to carry the name of B5.
The previous reasoning was that ancient ships did not take criticals, as they had no critical systems to damage - they simply lived until they were dead, completely in line with what we see in the series.
Now they have to suffer rolls on a critical system designed for ships with crew, computers, reactors and so forth - which doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
How can the ship suffer a hit to the bridge when the bridge is its brain (or equivalent)? How can it be obliged to make the crew step into line when it is a living being which is 'part' (assuming there's a Vorlon onboard) of the Vorlon pilot?
The list goes on along those lines...
The previous reasoning was that ancient ships did not take criticals, as they had no critical systems to damage - they simply lived until they were dead, completely in line with what we see in the series.
Now they have to suffer rolls on a critical system designed for ships with crew, computers, reactors and so forth - which doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
How can the ship suffer a hit to the bridge when the bridge is its brain (or equivalent)? How can it be obliged to make the crew step into line when it is a living being which is 'part' (assuming there's a Vorlon onboard) of the Vorlon pilot?
The list goes on along those lines...
bridge = brain, crew = minor organisms necessary for life functions, reactor = heart... all just words, effects are what is important. Lose speed, damaged the biological system that lets it move, lose AD, damage the energy gland responsible for a number of things, etc.
Still very B5...
AS to the non-exploding ancients... the shadow ship destroyed by the vorlond destroyer certainly flew apart the way explosions are described as doing their damage. Remember explosions are subject to dodge because its not the blast but the resulting chunks that matter.
Anyway... just saying there are lots of other ways to look at it, it's not like their are changing the names of things clearly seen in the show with the changes they made...
Ripple
Still very B5...
AS to the non-exploding ancients... the shadow ship destroyed by the vorlond destroyer certainly flew apart the way explosions are described as doing their damage. Remember explosions are subject to dodge because its not the blast but the resulting chunks that matter.
Anyway... just saying there are lots of other ways to look at it, it's not like their are changing the names of things clearly seen in the show with the changes they made...
Ripple
David Anla Shok'
Mongoose
Ripple said:
Just reviewed the battle of Coriana VI. (yeah I know, in a rut) Sure looked like there were a lot of Shadows and Vorlon ships going BOOM.
CheesyRobMan
Mongoose
If we're talking about what we see in the TV programme, then the Shadow ships more often seem to crumple in on themselves and become a withered, shrunken version when they die. It's only when they are subjected to really extreme violence (nuclear bombs, ramming by speeding Vorlons, focussed fire from 3 G'Quans at once) that bits come off or they get 'sploded.
But if it wasn't there, you'd take twice as much damage! DD might negate AA, but remembe AA also negates DD...Alexb83 said:
To be fair your cries of "my ship is broken" are based on a game which you already admitted the dice went heavily in favour of your opponent! There is no tactic or ship traits that can counter that. Look at my games with TGT and Hash... they had identical fleets... I completely ganked TGT (only 1 Ranger and 3 Pak'ma'ra died, I didn't lose even a Patrol level ship). Based on that he could say that Shadows are totally useless and undepowered, in fact that game put him off buying the fleet box! Then Hash just walked all over me, it would've been a complete whitewash if one White Star hadn't stripped the shields and got an unharmed Shadow Ship down to 11 health, in one shot!!! Based on that game, White Stars are completely gimped, my AA did nothing to help against his TD beam, etc...
Similar threads
