Vorlon Fighter's Anti-Fighter

[B5freak]

Locutus9956 wrote:

If a fighter has the antifighter trait it can use it when contacted BEFORE dogfights are resolved. HOWEVER OTHER fighters or ships within 2" can't as they are not in the dogfight themselves.

Oh? Why not? A ship can make AF attacks against any fighter within 2" so long as the fighter isn't in a dogfight. If fighter flights get to take AF attacks between movement and the initiation of a dogfight, then any fighter with AF and within 2" of an enemy fighter flight should be able to contribute. Again, nothing in the language of the rule says they can't.

As to Vorlon fighters being plenty tough already, remember that Vorlons don't have access to any carriers. That means every single Vorlon fighter flight on the board is worth a VP. Hull 5 means nothing in a dogfight, and AAF is typically giving you only a 50/50 chance to stop a dogfight before it happens. That means any race with "free" fighters (or worse, e-mines) has a distinct advantage since dogfights become a low to no-risk means of gaining VPs from the Vorlons.

 

[Ripple]

If we were to take your interpretation B5freak, we would have to stop each flight as we moved it and ask 'any AF/AAF fire?' And only after we announce which fighter we intended to contact. If you did not fire at that point, once the fighter is in contact, it is immune to further AF/AAF fire.

Is this correct?

Ripple

 

[B5freak]

Ripple Wrote:

If we were to take your interpretation B5freak, we would have to stop each flight as we moved it and ask 'any AF/AAF fire?' And only after we announce which fighter we intended to contact. If you did not fire at that point, once the fighter is in contact, it is immune to further AF/AAF fire.

Is this correct?

Ripple

That's an entirely plausible, if unwieldy interpretation. The rules do state that, "once you move into base contact with an enemy flight, you are considered to be dogfighting...". Combined with the statement that, "..some special fighters may also have the Anti-Fighter trait, which may be used just before a dogfight is initiated, as enemy fighters move into contact...", you get a scenario where fighter A moves into contact with AF-armed fighter B. As soon as the flights are touching, all fighter-based AF against flight A must be delcared before any other flights move.

I don't exactly think that makes a lot of sense in terms of game flow, but that's how the rules read. Of course, the rules also state, "as enemy fighters move into contact", which could be interpreted as, "Vorlons only get their AF if an enemy flight moves into contact with the Vorlons, not if the Vorlons move into contact with the enemy." Which don't make no sense. I'm American, so it's reasonable that I can't speak no good English, but I'd hope the people who invented the language could be a bit clearer in their use of it....

 

[Target]

Honestly i thinks it's more a problem with the dogfight rule. It kinda just makes things more complicted. AF & Supporting.
Not sure why they just didn't stick with firing your weapons systems at ships in range & then rolling dodge. Works for ships. If it's a good dogfighter make it modify the dodge roll. Lot simplier, it would cut out the dogfight phase, just fire them in goups during ship firing phase. It's actually far easier & quicker than soughting out dogfight bonuses. A supporting flight is one that shoot at the same fighter. It just has to make more dodges. Way less confusing.

 

[Iain McGhee]

At risk of repeating myself :wink: :From the phrase in the rules that AF "may be used just before a dogfight is initiated, as enemy fighters move into contact" it seems that the fighters don't count as dogfighting until after AF is resolved (backed up by the Advanced Turn Sequence table). That would allow any AF capable fighter within range to attack them. I've re-read the section and there's nothing stating that only the fighters in contact may use AF. And nothing that states that AF for fighters fires, or is used in any way different from, warship mounted AF. I'd interpret the "move into contact" phrase as only meaning that AF fires before dogfights occur. Nothing more.

 

[Foxmeister]

I'd interpret the "move into contact" phrase as only meaning that AF fires before dogfights occur. Nothing more.

In the absence of something official to the contrary, I'd have to agree. I see no reason why any AF couldn't fire.

Regards,

Dave

 

[cadno ap annwn]

I've sort of been knocking this around with fellow players, the idea we come to is that the AF fires at the fighter that is about to engage. So in effect the Vorlon fighter gets to make a shot before dogfighting begins. If you look at that way it means if a Vorlon fighter is about to be swamped it can at least get rid of one of them before the trouble starts!!

It might not be entirely accurate but its just a work in progress

Rich

 

[l33tpenguin]

The AF trait on Vorlon fighters, in my opinion, represents their longer than average range on them. They simply are able to engage at range before getting into a dog fight.

 

[AdrianH]

Vorlon fighters aren't the only ones with long range weapons. The Tzymm even outranges the Vorlon fighter. By that logic, those fighters should also have AF.

 

[l33tpenguin]

Vorlon fighters aren't the only ones with long range weapons. The Tzymm even outranges the Vorlon fighter. By that logic, those fighters should also have AF.

You're right! maybe they should! Although, I would really like to see the Shadow Fighter get some love. Maybe not as a good dog fighter, but, I think, they should put a SERIOUS hurting on ships. Enough for them to be considered a real threat if you are without fighter cover.

 

[mollari_uk]

...I would really like to see the Shadow Fighter get some love. Maybe not as a good dog fighter, but, I think, they should put a SERIOUS hurting on ships. Enough for them to be considered a real threat if you are without fighter cover.

Hopefully something that's coming in P&P but Shields working against AF would do this. Still pants in a dogfight but you'd have to assign double AF to each fighter and hit with both. Scary!

 

[AdrianH]

Indeed. From the fluff:

Notoriously relentless, Shadow Fighters are fast and agile, able to withstand a great amount of damage while blasting enemies apart with their Polarity Cannon.

Fast? Speed 12 - not exactly fast for a fighter.
Agile? Dodge 3, Dogfight +0 - there are a few fighters which are less agile, but not many.
Able to withstand a great amount of damage? Not in dogfights or against AF, the two things most likely to get between a fighter and its target.

If I'd actually bought Shadow fighters as individual units rather than as part of the boxed fleet set, I'd be looking to sue someone for false advertising. :lol:

Actually, the Shadow fighter's 3D AP DD gun is quite capable of putting serious hurting on ships; it just rarely gets to fire. I'd say that, based on the fluff, the Shadow fighter should get its Dogfight bonus increased, plus either allow the shield to work against AF or increase the gun's range. Look at the Rutarian, which costs the same as the Shadow fighter, has a long range gun, Dogfight +2, and Stealth for good measure.

 

[Banichi]

They could give shadow ships (both old and young) the fleet carrier trait.

The dogfight bonus could reflect the fact that it is meant to be the ships CPU remotely controling the fighters. When a ship isn't present the lack of dogfighting bonus is due to the lack of detailed control.

The ability of fleet carriers to basically save flights could be the cpu reorginising a scattered flight, or the ship spitting out some more.

 

[cadno ap annwn]

I don't know, I quite like the ability to just spit fighters out as a weapon but I think it should not be limited to just 2 flights. Personally due to the fact you are not able to slice when you're doing it the ability to keep spitting out fighters would be amazing!!!

Rich

 

[Da Boss]

Indeed. From the fluff:

Notoriously relentless, Shadow Fighters are fast and agile, able to withstand a great amount of damage while blasting enemies apart with their Polarity Cannon.

Fast? Speed 12 - not exactly fast for a fighter.
Agile? Dodge 3, Dogfight +0 - there are a few fighters which are less agile, but not many.
Able to withstand a great amount of damage? Not in dogfights or against AF, the two things most likely to get between a fighter and its target.

If I'd actually bought Shadow fighters as individual units rather than as part of the boxed fleet set, I'd be looking to sue someone for false advertising. :lol:

Actually, the Shadow fighter's 3D AP DD gun is quite capable of putting serious hurting on ships; it just rarely gets to fire. I'd say that, based on the fluff, the Shadow fighter should get its Dogfight bonus increased, plus either allow the shield to work against AF or increase the gun's range. Look at the Rutarian, which costs the same as the Shadow fighter, has a long range gun, Dogfight +2, and Stealth for good measure.

I could start another 25+ page thread on it if you'd like :wink:

lets hope for P+P to sort out the baby shadows

 

[eldiablito]

The shadow fighters really only need one thing to make them good, IMO... Their shields need to work against Anti-Fighter and Dogfights.

With this single change, the shadow fighter can now survive long enough to hunt enemy capital ships and can even survive a round of dogfighting!

 

[nekomata fuyu]

I'd agree that shields need to work against Anti-Fighter, but I think that shields should only come into dogfighting in that the dogfight score should include the effect of the shields. From the show, Shadow Fighters seem about an equal match to Frazi, so a dogfight of +0 seems about right to me. If they did get to use their shields as an extra rule in dogfights, I'd expect them to have a dogfight of -1.

 

[Atreyeux]

Hey Guys,

Damn, I seem to have started something here.....Oooops.... :lol:

With regards to my original question, after reading this rigorous DEBATE... , we have decided to go with the premiss that if a fighter engages a Vorlon fighter in a dogfight (or vice versa), then, and only then, does it use its AF. The AF systems kicking in as the fighter engages. Should the fighter survive, its a Dogfight as usual, and no other AF can be used. This will be done for each individually, time lagging I know... l

This seems the fairest option at the moment until we get a ruling....Mat :twisted:

With regards to the other interesting side step, Shadow Fighters, I believe they should get to use there shields! Scandelous, I know...

When G'kar and his flight escape the Shadows (Season 2, Ep 2. 'Revealations'), One or two shots were absorbed by the turning Frazi fighters. The explosion with the Frazi and Shadow fighter also seems to have been absorbed by the two remaining Shadow fighters.

We have played a few games where the Shadow fighters shields have been AGREED in a dogfight, they Shadows stay in the fight a little longer, and the results are much more entertaining...

Give it a go, and see what you think!

Meanwhile we hope that the new Parliments & Principalities will clear a few things up, and give us even more ships for our fleets (New or Variant).

 

[Ripple]

Well hope it all works out...

The idea that AF from fighters fires in some special pseudo-phase just bugs me too much to advocate it. The dogfight is initiated at the point you move into contact... before any AF fire... so don't see any issue there. Fighters in a dogfight cannot be targeted AF... okay... then they list the exception... fighters with AF may shoot even if an enemy fighter contacts them... you are just limited to attacking the fighter attacking you or that you are attacking. That is the 'if both have' part.

Fighter shields should work against AF and regular weapons. Dogfight should be one higher if your shield is intact (might be shot off by AF that turn.)

Ripple

 

[cadno ap annwn]

I'll agree, the shadow fighters should have shields against AF. Other than that I think they handle pretty well, though I must say I've never got close enough to a cap ship to find out how goood they can be lol.

Curse those younger race fighters!!!

Rich