Variant worldgen rules - TL issue

enderra

Mongoose
Hey guys,

Is there an official errata for the core book?

I wrote a small script last night that would generate worlds according to the rules there, including the "realistic" worldgen rules. The problem is, however, that it results in 30-50% of worlds having a TL that is too low for survival. This means I either have a bug in my script, or there's a bug in the generation rules. Since I can't find any bug on my end, I'll work from the later assumption... :)

For example, if a world has Atmo A, it requires a TL of 8, which is barely feasible just by the physical characteristics; the world gets +1 for that Atmo, and maybe another +1 for size 3-4.

I can of course house-rule it. The easy way is to just set worlds to the minimum TL required, but it's actually fun to have a few worlds with problems (just not half of them!).

Another solution would be to assume that "colonies" (Pop 6-) have the same TL as their "parent" planet. This is hard to implement in a simple script, but easy enough to do manually afterward and an entirely realistic solution to the problem.

Proposal for a RNG solution:

The "realistic" rules work under the assumption that worlds will be remote frontier worlds with low populations. This is fine, but ignores:

a) People generally will have the tech to settle where they live or they wouldn't do so (unless they are sentient space lemmings).

Assume different TL mods for atmosphere:

atmomods.png

b) Asteroids and orbital complexes need SOME form of spaceport by their very nature, unless it somehow got destroyed... +2 on roll to starport result if size=0 and pop>0.

This reduces the likelyhood of X class starports on these worlds, which carry a hefty -4 TL penalty.

These additions seem to reduce the "too-low TL" results to 10-20%, and they CAN result (rarely) in TLs that are too high for the default Traveller setting:

Port;Size;Atmo;Hydro;Pop;Govt;Law;TL;Climate;Trade;Zone;Notes
A;0;0;0;8;6;7;18;Temperate;As Ht Va ;;

This world got:
+2 from size
+3 from atmo (my mod, would be +1 otherwise)
+1 from hydro
+6 from Star port

Guess the lucky guys rolled a 6 on the d6 for TL. Have only seen one such world so far in 100+ results that I checked for it.

c) Optional addition: Increase the population penalties for unsuitable worlds. If it is a hostile planet, people will be much less likely to settle there.

Right now, a world with a bad atmo or bad size gets a -1 which still means 91.6% have at least population 1. A world with bad atmo and bad size has 83.33% likelihood of being inhabited.

Doubling those penalties would reduce that to 58.33%. This would further reduce the "TL too low" issue by simply, well, making fewer such problem worlds inhabited in the first place. The problem is that it also reduces the max pop of those systems from "hundreds of millions" to "million" range and having a few high pop asteroid belts is cool, so I dislike this.

Anyway. Thoughts? I'd like to nail this down before I create my sector. ;)
 
enderra said:
Hey guys,

Is there an official errata for the core book?

I wrote a small script last night that would generate worlds according to the rules there, including the "realistic" worldgen rules. The problem is, however, that it results in 30-50% of worlds having a TL that is too low for survival.

The world gen rules have been broken in that way since CT. You have to rewrite them in order to have logical results.
 
enderra said:
The problem is, however, that it results in 30-50% of worlds having a TL that is too low for survival.
Sorry, I didn't read through your proposed new rules as I felt it was unnecessary. All the quotes below come from the core rules
Technology Levels measure the scientific capacity of a world
Even on a low-technology world, there might be examples of higher
technology. A warlord on a primitive planet might enforce his rule
with advanced weapons imported from offworld; colony worlds
are often dependant on their sponsor civilisation for supplies
and support. Some low-technology worlds are aware of the larger
universe, and have consciously decided to reject higher technology.
The Technology Level measures the average technology presence
on the planet, and gives an idea of local production and repair
capability. Trade with offworlders may bring in advanced technology;
"Duh, your club weird." My impression of a TL0 neanderthal the first time they see a shovel.

My point is that people may very well know how to use higher tech equipment than the world is rated at. They can import it. They just cant, in reference to my example, turn iron ore into shovels.

The UWP is used for determining trade codes. A low tech world is not a high technology exporter but they could be high tech users and importers.
A planet’s technology may be one or more levels higher or lower in
a particular field, such as Medicine, Communications, Weaponry,
Ship Construction, Power Generation, Computers and so forth.
Low tech high population? Maybe farming is a little higher tech than the rest of the world.

Unhealthy atmosphere? Maybe they can produce higher tech level life support and/or survival gear.
The government may also have access to higher-technology items.
Maybe the population has a low tech living with hand tools and no internet or cell phones :shock: But the environmental and other high tech necessities to survive are maintained by the government. Perhaps it's breaking down and they need a rush shipment for a part or need assistance with repairs. Perhaps the government is abusive and uses their control to charge high taxes, or require hard long labor by the population and they would like to see the government overthrown or ruler killed.

Seeds of an adventure.
 
Interesting stuff, please continue posting as your process evolves. There's nothing sacrosanct about the world generation system in Traveler and I'm always interested in how other players and GMs approach this problem.

Simon Hibbs
 
In previous editions there have been Minimum Environmental Tech Levels depending on atmosphere types (they first showed up in the CT Zhodani Alien Races book, quoted below).

Certain atmospheres on worlds dictate the minimum tech levels shown below. If a world has the indicated atmosphere and its tech level does not meet the minimum, change its population, government, law level, and tech level to 000-0 instead.
Atmosphere 2 - TL 7
Atmosphere 3 - TL 6
Atmosphere 4, 7, or 9 - TL 5
Atmosphere A or B - TL 8
Atmosphere C - TL 9
(oddly enough they miss out Atm 0 and 1, but that should have min TL 8 )

These rules say that the world is Barren/uninhabited (pop 0, gov 0, law 0, TL 0) if its TL is below the minimum, but alternatively you could just raise the TL to the minimum value if the generated value is below it.

Unfortunately it appears that these limits weren't used to generate UWPs in any official products.
 
F33D said:
The world gen rules have been broken in that way since CT. You have to rewrite them in order to have logical results.

Or alternatively you could just interpret the stats in the way they were intended to be interpreted.

Wil Mireu said:
Unfortunately it appears that these limits weren't used to generate UWPs in any official products.

That table could be useful as a guide to the technology a world has available for environmental control, as against it's average TL across all areas of technology as expressed in the UWP.

Simon Hibbs
 
simonh said:
F33D said:
The world gen rules have been broken in that way since CT. You have to rewrite them in order to have logical results.

Or alternatively you could just interpret the stats in the way they were intended to be interpreted.

Sure. Show me the published interpretation rules for when illogical results are produced. I've never seen any in any of the versions...
 
Core Rule Book page 179, RH column has a table with minimum Tech Levels.

If a rolled up world has a lower TL, you have a choice:

1. Raise the TL to the minimum

2. Change the POP, GOV, LL and TL to 0 and make it a dead colony

3. Leave it alone and come up with a reason why it can exist (or is dying out) due to the TL difference.

Personally, I do 1 within an interstellar polity and 2 outside the polities. Occasionally, I do 3, but not that often.
 
F33D said:
simonh said:
F33D said:
The world gen rules have been broken in that way since CT. You have to rewrite them in order to have logical results.

Or alternatively you could just interpret the stats in the way they were intended to be interpreted.

Sure. Show me the published interpretation rules for when illogical results are produced. I've never seen any in any of the versions...

The results, wrt tech levels anyway, are not illogical. What are your grounds for interpreting it in this way?

The rated TL is not an absolute that applies to all forms of technologies and it's not a limit. That is very clearly explained in the rulebook. Assuming that the rated TL excludes access to technologies implied by other aspects of the UWP is not supported by the rules.

Simon Hibbs


edit - clarified that I'm talking about tech levels specifically
 
F33D said:
simonh said:
The results are not illogical.

Show me the published interpretation rules/guidelines.

I thought cosmicgamer's quotes from the rulebook defining what tech levels are were pretty relevant.

Edit - Just to be clear. First of all read the rules on TL in the MGT rulebook, but the quotes from the rules in cosmicgamer's post are probably sufficient. Then for example consider a world with a TL of 3 but that has an atmosphere that you'd expect would require TL 5 environmental equipment for survival. Then tell me how you think those two things are inconsistent. What is it in the TL rules that would lead you to think that it's impossible for those people to live on that planet.

Simon Hibbs
 
simonh said:
F33D said:
simonh said:
The results are not illogical.

Show me the published interpretation rules/guidelines.

I thought cosmicgamer's quotes from the rulebook defining what tech levels are were pretty relevant.

No, show me published materials that tell you how to interpret strange world gen results. That's what you said existed.
 
F33D said:
No, show me published materials that tell you how to interpret strange world gen results. That's what you said existed.

No? Really?

I refer the honorable gentleman to my posts in the thread above as to what I said.

I do think Mongoose Traveller is much better on these issues than CT, but IIRC even CT allowed for worlds having TLs that varied slightly in different areas of technology.

Simon Hibbs
 
simonh said:
I do think Mongoose Traveller is much better on these issues than CT, but IIRC even CT allowed for worlds having TLs that varied slightly in different areas of technology.

"This is the TL, except for when it isn't" is still pretty unsatisfying though. I get that TL can vary over individual fields (the DGP World Builders Handbook had rules for generating a whole TL profile over various technologies), but I don't buy the argument that the TL isn't necessarily what's being produced locally, just what's being used.

At the very least, the TL should be the minimum required for the environment. If you have a TL 3 world on a planet that requires TL 5 to survive, then IMO that's just nonsensical. It either has to be raised to TL 5, or the population has to be removed. Otherwise it's pretty meaningless to have a TL number defined at all.
 
F33D said:
No, show me published materials that tell you how to interpret strange world gen results. That's what you said existed.
Strange is your word, not a word used in the rules so I doubt a quote that meets your criteria could be provided.

We've already given examples in the rules which should help a person with reasonable imagination explain certain UWPs but here are a few more.

How about the Darrian Mahgiz.
Spinward Marches by Mongoose said:
The pulse did no physical damage but destroyed electronics. At
a stroke factories, hospitals, businesses and starships lost their
electronics systems. Vehicles crashed, automated systems went out
of control and communications went down.
Without the
technology and industry of the homeworld there was no way to
replace or sustain technological items such as starships possessed
by the Darrian colonies.
These colonies relied on trade to sustain themselves. So as I said earlier, a low tech world means they are an importer of tech and not an exporter.
Spinward Marches by Mongoose said:
The beginning of the Long Night was characterised by piracy and
warfare as the successor states battled over the wreckage of the
Empire. Most worlds were not able to maintain their technological
or industrial base without interstellar trade and a rapid technological
slump ensued.
Spinward Marches by Mongoose said:
Although somewhat sub–optimal as a place to live, Vanejen can
easily support humans. It was settled around –2400 by Vilani
colonists, but became isolated during the Long Night, falling back
to barbarism before climbing back up to a modest technological
base.
In just a couple minutes I came up with these.
 
Wil Mireu said:
simonh said:
I do think Mongoose Traveller is much better on these issues than CT, but IIRC even CT allowed for worlds having TLs that varied slightly in different areas of technology.

"This is the TL, except for when it isn't" is still pretty unsatisfying though. I get that TL can vary over individual fields (the DGP World Builders Handbook had rules for generating a whole TL profile over various technologies), but I don't buy the argument that the TL isn't necessarily what's being produced locally, just what's being used.

At the very least, the TL should be the minimum required for the environment. If you have a TL 3 world on a planet that requires TL 5 to survive, then IMO that's just nonsensical. It either has to be raised to TL 5, or the population has to be removed. Otherwise it's pretty meaningless to have a TL number defined at all.

Take the example of a primitive population living in an environmental complex such as a city dome they can't manufacture or adequately maintain themselves. This is a staple of SF so it would be nice if our game could accommodate such a situation.

On the one hand you say their TL should be the level of what they can make themselves so that would be 3. On the other, you say it should be the TL of the dome they live in, so that should be 5 or 10 or even more.

Of course it's not a sustainable situation, it's not stable, but it's perfectly valid and gameable.

It is fair to say that this situation comes up too often in Traveller world gen. There are also other situations that come up, such as small worlds with dense atmospheres that couldn't exist in reality. A few extra limits or caps in the generation process wouldn't go amiss as long as they're not too restrictive. But I really don't think there's anything fundamentally broken in the TL definition.

Simon Hibbs
 
Wow, I had not anticipated the amount of replies - thanks for that.

Yes I can interpret and fix manually (and that's what I am doing), just wanted to check if an "official, playtested" version might exist. I couldn't find any with some googling.

The reason why I'd like the RNG to be fixed is because it's supposed to take the brunt work off of my hands. Some strange results are fine - in fact, they should exist - because they make it more interesting, but when every other world generated should die out then something is wrong. (I am surprised this was not caught in playtesting for the game, since I noticed it on my very first subsector.)

simonh said:
Interesting stuff, please continue posting as your process evolves. There's nothing sacrosanct about the world generation system in Traveler and I'm always interested in how other players and GMs approach this problem.

Thanks, will do. I actually went ahead and used my modifications in generating several subsectors. As far as I can tell it works for me so far; I still have too many "too-low-TL" worlds but I decided to go with the current results and take a look at the greater picture. I can then fix the script later if need be.

It does seem to generate a lot of low-pop crummy worlds, which is perfect for what I have in mind.

Will gladly post the results once the sector is done. I'm mapping manually (Inkscape) so it's a slow process.

Wil Mireu said:
In previous editions there have been Minimum Environmental Tech Levels depending on atmosphere types (they first showed up in the CT Zhodani Alien Races book, quoted below).

Certain atmospheres on worlds dictate the minimum tech levels shown below. If a world [...]

Unfortunately it appears that these limits weren't used to generate UWPs in any official products.

Yeah, that's of course similar (but not the same thing, interestingly) that the rules book says (page 179). Unfortunately, the Core Rules Book omits to state what should be done in such cases. :)


Wil Mireu said:
simonh said:
I do think Mongoose Traveller is much better on these issues than CT, but IIRC even CT allowed for worlds having TLs that varied slightly in different areas of technology.

"This is the TL, except for when it isn't" is still pretty unsatisfying though. I get that TL can vary over individual fields (the DGP World Builders Handbook had rules for generating a whole TL profile over various technologies), but I don't buy the argument that the TL isn't necessarily what's being produced locally, just what's being used.

At the very least, the TL should be the minimum required for the environment. If you have a TL 3 world on a planet that requires TL 5 to survive, then IMO that's just nonsensical. It either has to be raised to TL 5, or the population has to be removed. Otherwise it's pretty meaningless to have a TL number defined at all.

Correct, with the addition of the option that it's a temporary situation (aka "Adventure seed").
 
One thing that CT did say that I think is missing in later editions is that the world gen process is specifically designed for generating frontier regions. You'd expect to find a greater proportion of anomalous results and unstable situations that are in a state of transition in such a region.

I'm currently developing a setting that experienced a catastrophic collapse of civilization over a hundred years ago. The disaster wiped out the then-dominant computer technology, which still doesn't work, so worlds have had to re-invent all their computer technology again based on primitive silicon chips. Only now are any worlds managing to re-develop interstellar technology.

The old SF trope of re-building after a major collapse is full of potential. It's not even particular to SF, it's a common theme in fantasy as well. For my needs I'm going to have to completely re-engineer the world generation system though. The standard one comes close, but it generates too many advanced developed worlds for my needs.

Simon Hibbs
 
Didn't TNE have rules for busting worlds down due to the war? That may be a good starting point, Simon.

As for the Mongoose rules, I found two new issues:

1) A LOT of Amber Zone candidates are generated. That's probably really something the GM has to solve, but I will keep it in mind for later revisions.

2) Climate is not taken into account in trade classifications. Example: I have the following world:

1026 Haddath E-648281-B Frozen

(Starport, Govt, Pop and TL were set manually for setting considerations.)

According to the rule book, this should be classified as Garden, Low-Population, but not as Ice Capped. Frozen, though, is defined as -51°C or less average temperature. That's not Earth-like!

I understand of course that there's no value in the UWP to represent climate, and that it was not originally part of the system, but of course it makes a lot of sense to include it.

Come to think of it, there is also no TL requirement for Frozen or Roasting worlds either.

Fixes:

a) Garden worlds must be "Temperate".

b) I think Ice-capped is supposed to represent Mars worlds. There's really nothing to represent a world that is just very cold as its primary characteristic (Europa comes to mind). I will be using the "Frozen World" category, requiring Size 1+ (as 0 are asteroids) and Frozen climate.
 
And another one:

Trade classification "Low Tech" should require Population 1+ in addition to Tech 5-.

(Not an issue for the "High Tech" classification because a population of 0 sets TL to 0.)
 
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