Variant Ion Weapon Rule

[MasterGwydion]

Right now an Effect+6, which would be a Crit with normal weapons simply extends the power outage for D3 rounds.

Instead, I propose to treat them as regular weapons instead. They do damage to a ship's power points. These return each round. For each 10% of the maximum total output of the ship's power plant that you do, it counts as a Crit 1 on one of the ship's systems, same as for regular weapons. In addition, just make Effect 6+ a Crit, same as with regular weapons.

Crits should happen if the Ion Weapon overloads systems. (On a Crit or on Sustained Damage)

What do you guys think? It's just a house rule btw.

 

[metlk]

I think the Ion weapons in general are almost useless unless you're using enough to sustainably overwhelm a power grid, and even then that relies on landing constant hits. I've not actually used them and I could be entirely wrong, so I'd welcome some discussion on how to best use these. In the current setup it would seem as though if I were going up against these, they would be an annoyance, but while they're doing temporary damage to my reactor power which might give cause me to have to choose to either move or attack (unless they manage to put out a MASSIVE amount of ion damage), I would still be putting out constant damage against them. They're not going to win the attrition battle and would be sacrificing damage output for no real gain. I think giving them the ability to crit would at least make them feasible for disabling a ship without destroying it. You'll take a pounding trying to do it, but the payoff of a ship that isn't wrecked could be well worth it.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I think the Ion weapons in general are almost useless unless you're using enough to sustainably overwhelm a power grid, and even then that relies on landing constant hits. I've not actually used them and I could be entirely wrong, so I'd welcome some discussion on how to best use these. In the current setup it would seem as though if I were going up against these, they would be an annoyance, but while they're doing temporary damage to my reactor power which might give cause me to have to choose to either move or attack (unless they manage to put out a MASSIVE amount of ion damage), I would still be putting out constant damage against them. They're not going to win the attrition battle and would be sacrificing damage output for no real gain. I think giving them the ability to crit would at least make them feasible for disabling a ship without destroying it. You'll take a pounding trying to do it, but the payoff of a ship that isn't wrecked could be well worth it.

6D6 x 10 for a small ion cannon bay. 60-360 points of power damage per shot. Same amount of damage and range as the small fusion gun bay. I would also say that if your ship has Radiation Shielding, you should apply the ship's armor to the damage reduction for the Ion Cannon, same as for any other bay weapons. That would make Radiation Shielding useful for more than just versus particle beam weapons and nukes.

 

[metlk]

6D6 x 10 for a small ion cannon bay. 60-360 points of power damage per shot. Same amount of damage and range as the small fusion gun bay. I would also say that if your ship has Radiation Shielding, you should apply the ship's armor to the damage reduction for the Ion Cannon, same as for any other bay weapons. That would make Radiation Shielding useful for more than just versus particle beam weapons and nukes.

If we work off of a default destroyer that has 1 small bay (although small ships can mount them) and it's fighting a similar class ship, the destroyer has 4,000 power. That one 6Dx10 shot is worthless. It might slow it down a little, or keep it from jumping, but it does very little to affect it's lethality. The damage is also only temporary. The only thing I can see an ion weapon being used for in it's current form is disrupting jump capability. If we add shielding to reduce it's affect, it's even worse. I don't disagree with you, I just think ions need to be more troublesome to justify using them or defending against them.

I won't say there aren't some niche uses for it. Putting a couple of small ion bays on a sub-1000 ton ship could make for quite an effective option for piracy if you want to get into a boarding action.

I would rather see the damage last for X turns and crits do damage. To make that work, the D3 rounds could reset upon each hit. It could potentially allow you to keep it locked down indefinitely (especially in the case of a lower-powered vessel?) I think a better way or perhaps along with that, the cannon takes X amount of turns to recharge so the opponent has a chance to recover. Maybe both are a D3 so you could get lucky and get a 3 round stun but 1 round recharge? Just a thought. I think there's a way to make it more situation useful, such as piracy or preventing a ship from escaping, without having to sacrifice too much damage potential or making it the "must have" weapon.

 

[MasterGwydion]

If we work off of a default destroyer that has 1 small bay (although small ships can mount them) and it's fighting a similar class ship, the destroyer has 4,000 power. That one 6Dx10 shot is worthless. It might slow it down a little, or keep it from jumping, but it does very little to affect it's lethality. The damage is also only temporary. The only thing I can see an ion weapon being used for in it's current form is disrupting jump capability. If we add shielding to reduce it's affect, it's even worse. I don't disagree with you, I just think ions need to be more troublesome to justify using them or defending against them.

I won't say there aren't some niche uses for it. Putting a couple of small ion bays on a sub-1000 ton ship could make for quite an effective option for piracy if you want to get into a boarding action.

I would rather see the damage last for X turns and crits do damage. To make that work, the D3 rounds could reset upon each hit. It could potentially allow you to keep it locked down indefinitely (especially in the case of a lower-powered vessel?) I think a better way or perhaps along with that, the cannon takes X amount of turns to recharge so the opponent has a chance to recover. Maybe both are a D3 so you could get lucky and get a 3 round stun but 1 round recharge? Just a thought. I think there's a way to make it more situation useful, such as piracy or preventing a ship from escaping, without having to sacrifice too much damage potential or making it the "must have" weapon.

400-ton Fiery-class Gunship in the ACS book mounts a small fusion bay. I was thinking of replacing that with a small ion cannon bay. 6D6 x 10 makes a huge difference when used against comparatively sized ships in this case. lol

Your method sounds complicated. Having to keep track of hits over multiple rounds. I wanted to make them useful, while simplifying what is there currently. So basically use the same rules as for regular weapons. Just damage the power points, instead of the Hits. They regenerate the next turn, but if you damage a ship with 300 power points, for 200 points of ion damage. That would have you roll 6 times on the Crit chart for 6 Crit 1s. That will not regenerate between turns. Those need repaired as per the normal critical hit repair rules. If you wanted to, you could say that the Crit Levels on all locations is reduced by one once you are out of combat rounds, if you wanted to.

 

[Arkathan]

Ion cannon shielding is EM hardening. It makes the system immune from ion "damage."
If every system is EM hardened, the ion cannon basically does nothing.
Or am I reading that wrong?

I think the Ion weapons in general are almost useless unless you're using enough to sustainably overwhelm a power grid, and even then that relies on landing constant hits. I've not actually used them and I could be entirely wrong, so I'd welcome some discussion on how to best use these. In the current setup it would seem as though if I were going up against these, they would be an annoyance, but while they're doing temporary damage to my reactor power which might give cause me to have to choose to either move or attack (unless they manage to put out a MASSIVE amount of ion damage), I would still be putting out constant damage against them. They're not going to win the attrition battle and would be sacrificing damage output for no real gain. I think giving them the ability to crit would at least make them feasible for disabling a ship without destroying it. You'll take a pounding trying to do it, but the payoff of a ship that isn't wrecked could be well worth it.

I have an 800 ton patrol ship in the Custom Ships thread. It has an ion cannon bay.
The normal hits let you close on the average pirate without taking damage. Critical hits give you time to to board.
Used it in a scenario where the patrol craft found three known pirate vessels snooping around the characters' hidden base orbiting a secondary star in the system. It took out all three pirates as they approached and only succumbed to the characters after an extended battle due to hits from PA barbettes.

 

[metlk]

400-ton Fiery-class Gunship in the ACS book mounts a small fusion bay. I was thinking of replacing that with a small ion cannon bay. 6D6 x 10 makes a huge difference when used against comparatively sized ships in this case. lol

Your method sounds complicated. Having to keep track of hits over multiple rounds. I wanted to make them useful, while simplifying what is there currently. So basically use the same rules as for regular weapons. Just damage the power points, instead of the Hits. They regenerate the next turn, but if you damage a ship with 300 power points, for 200 points of ion damage. That would have you roll 6 times on the Crit chart for 6 Crit 1s. That will not regenerate between turns. Those need repaired as per the normal critical hit repair rules. If you wanted to, you could say that the Crit Levels on all locations is reduced by one once you are out of combat rounds, if you wanted to.

I haven't seen that ship, but yeah in a smaller package against a smaller ship, it is effective as a stun lock. I had the same problem with trying to work out how multiple stacking hits would work, which is why I suggested the recharge rate. I think the crit system is a good solution in itself though, I was just brainstorming other ways to give it a bit more usability on paper.

I have an 800 ton patrol ship in the Custom Ships thread. It has an ion cannon bay.
The normal hits let you close on the average pirate without taking damage. Critical hits give you time to to board.
Used it in a scenario where the patrol craft found three known pirate vessels snooping around the characters' hidden base orbiting a secondary star in the system. It took out all three pirates as they approached and only succumbed to the characters after an extended battle due to hits from PA barbettes.

Perhaps it's more useful than it sounds.

 

[tytalan]

Ion cannon are really not a military weapon it’s easy to defend against and the defense is a common one. No the ion cannon is more of a pirate weapon and as such works well the way it’s set up.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Ion cannon are really not a military weapon it’s easy to defend against and the defense is a common one. No the ion cannon is more of a pirate weapon and as such works well the way it’s set up.

Ion Cannons for customs ships are brilliant too. Not just for pirates. Anyone for whom disabling is preferred to destroying. Etc. They are not a killing weapon. Doesn't mean they are not used by naval patrol vessels. It is always preferable to put a pirate on trial and then throw him out an airlock instead of just blowing him up. lol

 

[tytalan]

Ion Cannons for customs ships are brilliant too. Not just for pirates. Anyone for whom disabling is preferred to destroying. Etc. They are not a killing weapon. Doesn't mean they are not used by naval patrol vessels. It is always preferable to put a pirate on trial and then throw him out an airlock instead of just blowing him up. lol

True but they are mostly useless vs warships. Which was my point

 

[MasterGwydion]

True but they are mostly useless vs warships. Which was my point

Not if you make the changes that I suggested.

 

[tytalan]

Not if you make the changes that I suggested.

Which are unbalanced and not needed

 

[MasterGwydion]

Which are unbalanced and not needed

If they are unbalanced, then so are the rules for all of the other weapons currently. I used the same rules, except power point damage returns every round, Crits do not. What is unbalanced?

 

[Nelphine]

I personally like the idea of having them cause crits, and I'm not sure how that would be unbalanced. But I haven't ran the numbers to see how many crits you would be getting compared to an equivalent size 'normal' weapon. Ideally, against another military ship, I'd want to get about 2/3 to 3/4 as many crits as the 'normal' weapon. Maybe even lower, but that's just because power plant size fluctuates far more than hull points, so against some ships you might get way more crits, and i wouldnt ion to overshine normal weaponry against military ships. They would be particularly effective against civilian ships, who usually have lower power ratings (although in that case I think its a good thing).

 

[MasterGwydion]

I personally like the idea of having them cause crits, and I'm not sure how that would be unbalanced. But I haven't ran the numbers to see how many crits you would be getting compared to an equivalent size 'normal' weapon. Ideally, against another military ship, I'd want to get about 2/3 to 3/4 as many crits as the 'normal' weapon. Maybe even lower, but that's just because power plant size fluctuates far more than hull points, so against some ships you might get way more crits, and i wouldnt ion to overshine normal weaponry against military ships. They would be particularly effective against civilian ships, who usually have lower power ratings (although in that case I think its a good thing).

Civilian ships would be devastated, but most military ships have good power ratings. As was pointed out previously, a destroyer-class ship may have around 4,000 power and about 2,000 hull points. So still less effective than regular weapons.

 

[Nelphine]

Assuming that's the 'average' power for military ships that size, then yeah, that's about right for what I'd want. I like it.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Assuming that's the 'average' power for military ships that size, then yeah, that's about right for what I'd want. I like it.

I would also like armor to count for Ion Weapons if the ship is radiation shielded, but that is just Me. Ships should have a way for armor to count for ion weapons.

 

[J. L. Brown]

I think Ion weapons are seriously underpowered as well. One thing about Ion damage that I think is unnecessarily nerfed is the 'lasts one round' aspect -- if the target ship had to generate enough power (over time) to cancel out the accumulated Ion damage, that would make Ion weapons a bit more useful. Although, as has been pointed out, armed ships typically have tremendously more power plant output than unarmed designs.

The idea of being able to inflict critical hits is interesting -- maybe any non-hardened power-using system is vulnerable, but Ion critical hits always strike where they would do the least damage. I agree that having a way to armor up vs Ion damage makes sense, and is a better approach (from a game mechanics perspective) than 'pay X credits and become immune'.

 

[J. L. Brown]

More thinking along this line:

Ion Damage persists indefinitely, and accumulates. It does no damage to ship systems directly, but as long as a vessel still has one or more points of Ion damage it cannot allocate power to any system (exception: Hardened Systems, detailed below). Every point (exception: Hardened power Plants, detailed below) of power that a powerplant generates (or released from storage in a battery) negates / gets rid of one point of existing Ion Damage.

Example: A ship with a rating 80 powerplant and a single dTon (of fully charged) Advanced Battery is hit with 90 points of Ion Damage. The ship cannot allocate power to any systems next round, but the output of the Power Plant reduces the accumulated Ion Damage by 80 points, to 10 Ion Damage remaining. The ship will drift, effectively unpowered, while this happens. If the ship had chosen to expend 10 of the power available in the batteries, it could have completely negated the damage in a single round, and still had 5 points of power to spend (probably on basic-hull expenses, like Life Support). Since the ship starts the following round with 10 points of Ion Damage, the Powerplant must expend 10 points of power to overcome the Ion Damage before other systems may be powered.

Hardened systems: A Hardened System may be allocated power even while the vessel still has accumulated Ion Damage remaining; but one point of Ion Damage must be negated each round for every point of power (exception: Multiply Hardened Systems, detailed below) which is to be allocated to a Hardened System.

Example: A ship with two Hardened Medium Meson Gun Bays (each requires 30 points) has accumulated Ion Damage which will take several rounds to negate. As long as the Power Plant negates at least 30 points of (or all remaining) Ion Damage, one of the Meson Gun Bays may be powered. If at least 60 points of Ion Damage (or all remaining) is negated, 60 power (if available) may be allocated to operate both bays. Good luck targeting stuff, though, if the ship does not have a Hardened Bridge and Sensors.

Multiply Hardened Systems: A system may be hardened more than once. Each level of Hardening allows the allocation of an additional point of power (to the hardened system in particular) per single point of Ion Damage negated in a round.

Example: A ship with two Medium Meson Gun Bays (each requires 30 points) has accumulated Ion Damage which will take several rounds to negate. One of them is Multiply Hardened (Hard x2); the other is simply Hardened once (Hard x1). As long as the Power Plant negates at least 15 points of (or all remaining) Ion Damage, the (Hard x2) Meson Gun Bay may be powered with (15 x2 =) 30 points of available power. If at least 30 points of Ion Damage (or all remaining) is negated, the (Hard x1) Meson Gun Bay may be powered with 30 points of available power. If the Powerplant negates at least 45 points of Ion Damage, then both Bays be allocated available power.

Hardened (and Multiply Hardened) Power Plants: A Powerplant may be built in such a way as to be better at dissipating accumulated Ion Damage. A Hardened powerplant negates an additional point of Ion Damage with each point of power generated & expended for this purpose.

Example: A ship with a rating 80 powerplant and a single dTon (of fully charged) Advanced Battery is hit with 90 points of Ion Damage. The Powerplant (but not the batteries) are (Hard: x1). This means that the powerplant can negate the Ion Damage by expending 45 (45 x2 = 90) points of power to entirely negate the Ion Damage. If the battery had been hardened instead, then the 15 points of power from the battery could negate (15 x2 = 30) 30 points of Ion Damage, leaving the powerplant to deal with the remaining 60 points.

Ion Armoring: A ship which has Radiation Shielding reduces the amount of accumulated Ion Damage from a hit. Instead of number if hits inflicted by an Ion Weapon /1 = Ion Damage; the formula becomes number of hits inflicted by an Ion weapon /(1 + # of levels of Radiation Shielding) = Ion Damage.

Ion Weapons inflict an additional (50% of their base Dice of Hits) per TL after introduction.

There really need to be Ion weapon mounts of every size, including a Spinal Mount.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

How does a emergency power plant work against ion weapons? Do they kick in and allow operation during the round of effect?