sideranautae
Mongoose
Jame Rowe said:
Go up to Alaska and the fishing fleet. They are required by the USCG regs to have immersion suits for all crew.
Vacc suits and clothing...
- Thread starter Annatar Giftbringer
- Start date
Go up to Alaska and the fishing fleet. They are required by the USCG regs to have immersion suits for all crew.
Reynard
Cosmic Mongoose
The TL 8 Vacc is the prototype and has all the detriments with being low level and needs Vacc 1 to operate. The Improved Vacc at TL 12 has 50% more durability, 50% the bulk and only requires Vacc 0 so this shows vast material improvement, miniaturization and better interactive electronics. The Tailored Vacc at TL 14 is twice as durable as TL 8 and 25% of the bulk and again need little training for use. That's quite an evolution for the equivalent of heavy clothing is armored, environment poof and has the electronics, plumbing and life support built in.
With a Traveller Universe in which TL 12 is about the average, the improved Vacc should be fairly standard for most ships and especially adventurers. The tailored should be first on any adventurer's wish list when they earn the money.
Don't disrespect the lowly TL Vacc too much, even Star Trek used them all the time and I doubt anyone could put on/take off those things like a jumpsuit.
With a Traveller Universe in which TL 12 is about the average, the improved Vacc should be fairly standard for most ships and especially adventurers. The tailored should be first on any adventurer's wish list when they earn the money.
Don't disrespect the lowly TL Vacc too much, even Star Trek used them all the time and I doubt anyone could put on/take off those things like a jumpsuit.
alex_greene
Guest
The Stargate SG-1 episode "Beachhead" showed a scene where Teal'c had to climb inside a TL 7 vacc suit on board the F303 Prometheus. It involved having to climb up onto a frame and clambering down into a standing suit through the neck aperture.Reynard said:
Reynard
Cosmic Mongoose
Isn't Vacc 0 part of basic training in many Traveller space careers?
Remember, you only need Vacc training if you plan to perform actual functions in a Vacc suit environment. Passengers on starships don't need to use them and emergency situations mean they are in rescue bubbles or emergency soft suits. ESSs require Vacc 0 but that means, in abnormal situations, an untrained person is at -3 for tasks. Stay in your suit and don't do anything until one of our stewards assists you.
Remember, you only need Vacc training if you plan to perform actual functions in a Vacc suit environment. Passengers on starships don't need to use them and emergency situations mean they are in rescue bubbles or emergency soft suits. ESSs require Vacc 0 but that means, in abnormal situations, an untrained person is at -3 for tasks. Stay in your suit and don't do anything until one of our stewards assists you.
I'd postulate that even a TL8 Traveller vacc suits can be worn over normal clothing provided the clothing isn't too bulky. It can be put on and removed pretty fast - within seconds if you do it routinely and even if you're pretty new to it, you can do it in less than 30 seconds.
I would say this is so because a modern day EVA suit simply doesn't have the centuries of experience and large amounts of money that have been invested into vacc suits that they would in the Traveller universe where vacc suits aren't just worn by a handful of people, but instead would be a reasonably mass-market commodity, leading to further developments, improvements, refinement, and so on. So even a suit built at TL8 technology actually benefits TL14 knowledge and so on.
Unlike suits of today, of course, such a "zip up and zip on" vacc suit has no sanitary hookups (or rather, they may have them, but putting it on so quickly means you're not going to be hooking it up), so if you either have to hold it or humiliate yourself. Beyond that, it's capable of life support for quite a while. This would be the kind of "casual stomping" type vacc suit - it's used as a general purpose suit by all kinds of people but primarily intended for people who do not (for fashion reasons) want to wear a "skinsuit" type spacesuit which is worn more like thermal underwear and is worn under your clothes.
As TLs go up suits become increasingly lighter, less bulky, and easier to operate and more like clothing. They also become safer and cheaper. They might actually just have a crotch zipper like modern pants so someone wearing them aboard a ship can simply relieve themselves the old fashioned way. In fact, it's well-known at with a TL11 suit you're actually best off to 'go commando' because the suit liner (which you don't wear beforehand but instead is the inside liner of the suit) snugs around your body after you put it on and will process things like sweat and bodily wastes (you go naked to prevent it from soaking into your clothes and causing discomfort and further humiliation).
By TL12 or so, there's a sort of special cream or "grease" you could rub on your skin to make it proof against vacuum (it would not protect against radiation and only limited protection against heat radiation); while some exhibitionists might savor the idea of going "commando" in space with just a helmet and oxygen pack, the cream would originally have been something used by people as a hedge against suit failure.
I would say this is so because a modern day EVA suit simply doesn't have the centuries of experience and large amounts of money that have been invested into vacc suits that they would in the Traveller universe where vacc suits aren't just worn by a handful of people, but instead would be a reasonably mass-market commodity, leading to further developments, improvements, refinement, and so on. So even a suit built at TL8 technology actually benefits TL14 knowledge and so on.
Unlike suits of today, of course, such a "zip up and zip on" vacc suit has no sanitary hookups (or rather, they may have them, but putting it on so quickly means you're not going to be hooking it up), so if you either have to hold it or humiliate yourself. Beyond that, it's capable of life support for quite a while. This would be the kind of "casual stomping" type vacc suit - it's used as a general purpose suit by all kinds of people but primarily intended for people who do not (for fashion reasons) want to wear a "skinsuit" type spacesuit which is worn more like thermal underwear and is worn under your clothes.
As TLs go up suits become increasingly lighter, less bulky, and easier to operate and more like clothing. They also become safer and cheaper. They might actually just have a crotch zipper like modern pants so someone wearing them aboard a ship can simply relieve themselves the old fashioned way. In fact, it's well-known at with a TL11 suit you're actually best off to 'go commando' because the suit liner (which you don't wear beforehand but instead is the inside liner of the suit) snugs around your body after you put it on and will process things like sweat and bodily wastes (you go naked to prevent it from soaking into your clothes and causing discomfort and further humiliation).
By TL12 or so, there's a sort of special cream or "grease" you could rub on your skin to make it proof against vacuum (it would not protect against radiation and only limited protection against heat radiation); while some exhibitionists might savor the idea of going "commando" in space with just a helmet and oxygen pack, the cream would originally have been something used by people as a hedge against suit failure.
Annatar Giftbringer
Emperor Mongoose
@Epicenter Wow, very interesting! Thanks for sharing, now I gotta have a character going commando in space... 
@Reynard Haha, perhaps! If I got hold of TL14 vacc suits I guess I'd wear it as clothing too, and I'd expect military, mercenary and Vargr characters to wear protection most of the time (at least when expecting trouble) but for the post I was more wondering how quickly and easily a civilian trader or something could get into his or her suit when needed and not about wearing it all the time.
Though I can somewhat relate to the player paranoia of wearing arms and armor at all time. "If we dress casually we might be rewarded for good role playing but on the other hand we might get into trouble, or have the gear stolen while unprotected..."
@Reynard Haha, perhaps! If I got hold of TL14 vacc suits I guess I'd wear it as clothing too, and I'd expect military, mercenary and Vargr characters to wear protection most of the time (at least when expecting trouble) but for the post I was more wondering how quickly and easily a civilian trader or something could get into his or her suit when needed and not about wearing it all the time.
Though I can somewhat relate to the player paranoia of wearing arms and armor at all time. "If we dress casually we might be rewarded for good role playing but on the other hand we might get into trouble, or have the gear stolen while unprotected..."
Reynard
Cosmic Mongoose
There's a big difference between wearing it most of the time and expecting trouble. As I repeat, the description of Traveller vacc suits is functional equipment rather than dress. They state even the tailored vacc suit is not made for continual wear even though it is essentially a form of specialized clothing. Using vacc suits is a planned action, you will be in a situation in the near future that calls for it such as an EVA or combat stations otherwise the suits are in their locker and crew are in regular dress or uniform. In actual emergencies, you climb into the Emergency Soft suit which would be designed to go over clothing and 'snap on' quickly.
If we consider that, there is no need to put on vaccs in a few seconds. I believe there was a reference a long time back that the Vacc skill also covers efficient suit-up procedure. Time would also be a factor of the technology of the suit, TL 8 is an effort to dress while higher TLs would be similar to the time to put on a full body jumpsuit, boots and gloves. One way to put it would be Donning vacc suit; Dexterity, Vacc suit, 1-6 minutes, Average (+0); DMs - TL 10 +1, TL 12 +2, TL 14 +3. This would mean the time factor is affected by each attempt to put the suit on correctly.
If we consider that, there is no need to put on vaccs in a few seconds. I believe there was a reference a long time back that the Vacc skill also covers efficient suit-up procedure. Time would also be a factor of the technology of the suit, TL 8 is an effort to dress while higher TLs would be similar to the time to put on a full body jumpsuit, boots and gloves. One way to put it would be Donning vacc suit; Dexterity, Vacc suit, 1-6 minutes, Average (+0); DMs - TL 10 +1, TL 12 +2, TL 14 +3. This would mean the time factor is affected by each attempt to put the suit on correctly.
sideranautae
Mongoose
Reynard said:
Per RAW at least, Scouts wear vacc suits while aboard as by TL 15 it CAN be worn, and IS worn as a uniform. As far as non-ship uniform I would think not as general clothing would still be more comfortable and practical.
Reynard
Cosmic Mongoose
The core book is vague about comfort while Central Supply Catalogue says the tailored suit "can be worn as a shipboard uniform, though most users find this aggravating after a while - a vacc suit is simply not as comfortable as clothing". That's why I said they are put on during actual work detail or in anticipation of imminent combat or emergency.
Annatar Giftbringer said:@Epicenter Wow, very interesting! Thanks for sharing, now I gotta have a character going commando in space...
You could, it'd be a bit hazardous, but not really harmful in the short-term. I'd imagine it'd be the futuristic equivalent of streaking; drunk university theater arts majors "streaking" between parts of their zero-g dance facility instead of taking the hallways like everyone else.
As someone else mentioned, research has shown that the human body just needs a little help to hold together in space - not the full heavy spacesuits we imagined they'd need. The cream (or at least it is applied like a cream) does this once it is ready. You put it on at the beginning of the day, let it "cure" (takes about 30 seconds) and you're good to go. It essentially helps support the human body as well allowing for good joint mobility. Normally it is permeable but "seals up" in vacuum (having to do with the 'cream' being microscopic "platelets" which lock edge-to-edge along body contours with exposure to vaccum, then unlock when there's atmosphere again).
People who are concerned about life support failure would wear the cream then a spacesuit without the gloves (since gloves are pretty irritating to work in). The bare hands would be more than protected by the cream, especially if you put on gloves afterwards.
People often talk about where to put the helmet - I'd imagine that spacesuits beyond a certain tech level (perhaps TL9 and above) would actually have a system (very vaguely) reminiscent of airbags in cars today mounted in the collar. If atmospheric pressure drops suddenly below a certain amount, a set of inflatable "balloons" are deployed around the person's head. The seal of this system may not be perfect since multiple balloons seal at the top of the head but it has to take into account that someone might be wearing their hair long and similar variables of fashion, instead the seal is designed to be "good enough." It is made of transparent plastic and while visibility wouldn't be perfect, it'd be good enough to navigate, read emergency signs and certainly good enough to get to the survival locker and retrieve an actual helmet or find and put on your helmet you left nearby. Air would be fed by a straw, either into the space around your head within the balloons or (ideally) in your mouth.
Similarly, I'd imagine that spacesuits actually would seal with seals that are large in surface area instead of small. Like a modern zipper only has a few millimeters of safety margin and is extremely intolerant of things catching in it. Similarly, modern spacesuits have a series of gaskets and rings which require careful inspection. TL10+ designs would be more like a "double breasted" suit design where the entire overlap surface consists of the seal area. Similarly, gloves for such a suit would be more like elbow gloves with lots of overlap between the wrist end of the suit and the elbow end of the gloves - it's more forgiving this way of clothing, hair, or other items catching in it. The suit would seal using simple effect of the vacuum outside causing the seal areas to swell and stick together.
sideranautae
Mongoose
Reynard said:
Yes. The CSC is referring specifically to a TL 14 suit. I agree with it. However, a TL 15 suit would be better and is the one worn as a uniform for the Scouts in what I'm talking about.
GypsyComet
Emperor Mongoose
sideranautae said:
On the gripping hand, many Scouts are a little strange.
Annatar Giftbringer
Emperor Mongoose
I can't seem to find anything a TL 15 scout suit either, could it be a 'relic' from another version of traveller? No mention in the scout book either.
Anyways, thanks everyone for contributing, this just get better and better!
That 'vacc cream', where is it from? Can't find it in any of the books I own..?
I agree that a larger seal surface sounds like a good idea. Some form of 'molecular bonding' or 'micro/nano seal' would be useful not only for vacc seals but also for regular clothing in some cases, I'd say. As an added bonus many areas of the suit would become dual layered when gloves, chest pieces and so on overlap, making them safer and more durable.
Speaking of seals and stuff, I'd imagine the armotec crew coat has some form of quick-seal against underlying clothes and a soft pullover 'helmet' since it can provide air for an hour.
Anyways, thanks everyone for contributing, this just get better and better!
That 'vacc cream', where is it from? Can't find it in any of the books I own..?
I agree that a larger seal surface sounds like a good idea. Some form of 'molecular bonding' or 'micro/nano seal' would be useful not only for vacc seals but also for regular clothing in some cases, I'd say. As an added bonus many areas of the suit would become dual layered when gloves, chest pieces and so on overlap, making them safer and more durable.
Speaking of seals and stuff, I'd imagine the armotec crew coat has some form of quick-seal against underlying clothes and a soft pullover 'helmet' since it can provide air for an hour.
sideranautae
Mongoose
Annatar Giftbringer said:
CT & I think GURPS. Maybe T4.
Annatar Giftbringer said:
Made up. Not really something, as described, that would work well though.
Tom Kalbfus
Mongoose
So how would you handle a situation where the ship's hull was breached and the players are struggling to put on their vacc suits before all the air rushes out?Reynard said:
Reynard
Cosmic Mongoose
"So how would you handle a situation where the ship's hull was breached and the players are struggling to put on their vacc suits before all the air rushes out?"
You are describing the extremely rare meteoroid big and fast enough to puncture a hull. You would have to wear your suit 24/7 for that bit of paranoia like the crew of a submarine wearing complete diving gear all the time just in case. Most ship crew will have at least a Vacc 0 or should make that a priority for leaning a new skill.
Space and star ships are compartmentalized and doors automatically shut in decompression. Also note decompression is not All or Nothing any more than decompression on an airliner except in the movies. It's been brought up before, there are emergency softsuits specifically for this very improbable occurrence. They are disposable and located throughout a ship. You make use of this until there's need to get to your regular vacc. For passengers, there is the rescue bubble to keep them safe until the emergency is resolved and that's only if that extremely rare puncture happens in their cabin area.
You are describing the extremely rare meteoroid big and fast enough to puncture a hull. You would have to wear your suit 24/7 for that bit of paranoia like the crew of a submarine wearing complete diving gear all the time just in case. Most ship crew will have at least a Vacc 0 or should make that a priority for leaning a new skill.
Space and star ships are compartmentalized and doors automatically shut in decompression. Also note decompression is not All or Nothing any more than decompression on an airliner except in the movies. It's been brought up before, there are emergency softsuits specifically for this very improbable occurrence. They are disposable and located throughout a ship. You make use of this until there's need to get to your regular vacc. For passengers, there is the rescue bubble to keep them safe until the emergency is resolved and that's only if that extremely rare puncture happens in their cabin area.
