Atmosphere types

EDG

Mongoose
GothiousRex said:
Dear Mongoose,

Can we have the missing atmosphere types text put into the Player's Guide errata file?

particularly,

None
Trace
Thin
Standard
Dense

please/thank you

I'll answer this here, because it raises some interesting issues. Intuitively and qualitatively speaking, this is what one would think these atmospheres ought to mean:

None: No atmosphere. Pretty self-explanatory.

Trace: Think of Mars today. There's enough of an atmosphere for weather and clouds and winds, but it sure isn't breathable and it's extremely thin. Essentially "Trace" is an Exotic atmosphere that is thinner than "Very Thin".

Very Thin: N2/O2 mix that is MUCH thinner than Earth's atmosphere, and not breathable by unaided humans - humans need a respirator (a.k.a. a compressor) to survive in this. Think "top of Mt Everest".

Thin: N2/O2 mix that is thinner than Earth's atmosphere, but still breathable by unprotected humans.

Standard: N2/O2 mix that is similar to Earth's atmosphere, and breathable by unprotected humans.

Dense: N2/O2 mix that is thicker than Earth's atmosphere, but still breathable by unprotected humans.


Now, the problem is that this actually isn't the case. Classic Traveller - for some bizarre reason - defined the atmospheres much more subjectively. Instead of defining them by pressure, CT defined them by 'breathability' and what a human would have to wear to survive in them. And since MGT is based on CT, it's carried that over here. Megatraveller and TNE at least defined them more by pressure though.

In CT, Vacuum (0) and Trace (1) are basically indistinguishable - both need Vacc Suits. Very Thin atmospheres (3) need a Respirator. Thin (5), Standard (6), and Dense (8) atmospheres don't need any aids to breathe. Tainted atmospheres (4, 7, 9) need a Filter Mask, and Very Thin, Tainted atmospheres (2) need a Filter Mask AND a Respirator. Exotic atmospheres (A) need oxygen tanks, but no further protection. Corrosive atmospheres (B) need a "Protective Suit" (apparently you don't need Oxygen Tanks too, but I'm pretty sure that was an erroneous omission), but a Vacc Suit will work too. And Insidious atmospheres (C) need a Vacc Suit at the very least. Dense/High (D), Thin/Low (E), and Special (F) atmospheres don't need any protection inside their habitable areas, but do elsewhere.

Here's the problem though: Say you have a Very Thin atmosphere. In CT terms, you know you need a Respirator to breath it - so there obviously isn't enough oxygen to breathe unaided, right? But that doesn't actually tell you anything about the pressure of the atmosphere, which is important for things like determining lift and drag and air resistance and so on - all it tells you is that it's hard to breathe. So is this atmosphere something with 1 atm pressure at the surface but very little oxygen content? Or is it something with about 0.2 atm pressure and about the same percentage of oxygen as Earth (and therefore still unbreathable without aids)?

Another problem is the Exotic atmospheres - sure, that works for worlds in the habitable zone (primitive Earth would be a type A atmosphere), but what about something like Saturn's moon Titan? Titan is actually listed in CT Book 6 as an Exotic (A) atmosphere... but try walking around on its surface with just oxygen tanks and you'll be a frozen popsicle within seconds - because of course the CT description doesn't account for whether the planet is in the inner or outer zone. So if you really need a Vacc Suit to survive on Titan, shouldn't CT class that as a Corrosive (B) atmosphere? Except it's not actually "corrosive" at all, it's just damn cold. (and while CT Book 3 lists "Cold Weather Gear" as an option, I suspect they actually mean "Arctic clothing" not "clothing that can withstand a cryogenic environment).

The solution (short of breaking an atmosphere down into separate pressure and compositional UWPs) I think is to take the World Builder's Handbook approach. WBH was a book published by Digest Group Publications for Megatraveller that vastly improve the details of world generation. In there, they define the atmosphere types by mean surface pressure instead of breathability, which is much more useful for things like vehicles as well as for visualisation.

Trace was defined as 0.01-0.09 atmospheres.
Very Thin was 0.1 to 0.4 atms.
Thin was 0.43-0.75 atms.
Standard was 0.76 to 1.4 atms.
Dense was 1.5 to 2.4 atms.
Very Dense (D, some A/B/C) was 2.5 to 750 atms.
Thin, Low (E) was 0.23-0.55 atms (at the base of the valleys).

With the surface pressure, one can figure out how breathable the atmosphere actually was by calculating the oxygen pressure (percentage of O2 in the air x surface atmospheric pressure). WBH also helped by defining "Low oxygen" and "High oxygen" taints for atms 2/4/7/9 which meant that you could have a standard pressure atmosphere that had little (or too much) oxygen to be breathable. So the assumption was that if you had atm 5/6/8 then the atmosphere was breathable without aid, and if you had atm 4/7/9 then it needed either a filter mask (for impurities) or respirators or reducers (if there was too little or too much oxygen in the air).

So atms 0-9 were basically defined by a pressure scale (0 was by implication less than 0.01 atm pressure - which annoyingly meant that Mars had no atmosphere according to WBH since its mean surface pressure is about 0.006 atms). Atm A-C could have pressures within a range of thicknesses from Very Thin to Very Dense. Atm D was Very Dense at the surface but thin enough to breathe at altitude (though for higher surface pressures the breathable altitude is way higher than any mountaintops), and Atm E was (Thin minus 0.2 atms) in the valleys.

(and yes, I know CT's atm E wasn't the same as Mongoose's atm E (which is actually CT's atm F). But CT's atm E was silly - you can't get ellipsoidal atmospheres like that).

So to answer your question, I'd say that you should define it by pressure and work from there.
 
EDG said:
Another problem is the Exotic atmospheres - sure, that works for worlds in the habitable zone (primitive Earth would be a type A atmosphere), but what about something like Saturn's moon Titan? Titan is actually listed in CT Book 6 as an Exotic (A) atmosphere... but try walking around on its surface with just oxygen tanks and you'll be a frozen popsicle within seconds - because of course the CT description doesn't account for whether the planet is in the inner or outer zone. So if you really need a Vacc Suit to survive on Titan, shouldn't CT class that as a Corrosive (B) atmosphere? Except it's not actually "corrosive" at all, it's just damn cold. (and while CT Book 3 lists "Cold Weather Gear" as an option, I suspect they actually mean "Arctic clothing" not "clothing that can withstand a cryogenic environment).


Don't forget that MGT also has a table for determining world temperature, though it is not included in the UWP. Being an atmosphere A gives Titan a +2 to the temperature roll. Being on the cold edge of the habitable zone gives a world a -4 to the temperature roll, however, and Titan is far beyond the cold edge of our habitable zone.

A little bit of math and a good deal of inference could be applied to both the temperature modifiers and the values on the temperature table to account for Titan and also any other colonies you might want on worlds far removed from the habitable zone of a star.

Providing a temperature table is one of the best things Mongoose did, IMO. It's really improved world generation for me.
 
I'm pretty sure that the temperature table in MGT assumes that the planet is in the habitable zone, and shouldn't be used if the planet is anywhere else.

If it's in the inner zone it's guaranteed to be Roasting (WAY beyond roasting really). If it's in the Outer zone then it's guaranteed to be Cryogenic (i.e. way beyond Frigid). If it's in the Middle Zone (between Habitable and Outer Zones, i.e. where Mars is in our own Solar System) then it's going to be Frigid at best, unless it's got a superdense atmosphere in which case it might be warmer.
 
I would recommend adding 2 new Temperatures to the existing Mongoose scale:

Burning: Inside the Ecosphere, HYD=0, Temp >100C. So Venus and Mercury would be Burning temperatures.

and

Cryonic: Outside the Ecosphere, No extra DMs on Hydro, but some atmospheric gasses will begin freezing out of the atmosphere, like CO2 on Mars and Methane on Titan. On Triton, Nitrogen can be a slush... Also, at these low temperatures, Water/Ice will be just another rock...

So Mars and everything outside of it will be Cryonic Temperature.

Both Burning and Cryonic require special suits (probably Vacc Suits or Enviro Suits) to survive the temperature.
 
A question and a comment.

First the question. What's the lowest atmospheric pressure at which there can reasonably be seas of open water?

Second, the comment. The Burning and Cryonic stuff is interesting, but remember the default is that every system has many worlds. The UWP is just there to represent the "interesting" one that potentially has people living on it. Presumably once you get into the orbital zone of Mercury or Titan, the assumption is that nobody would actually live on the planet. You need so much survival gear to make such a habitat viable, it makes far more sense to live in an orbital. (Circling the relevant world, if there's some resource there that needs to be worked with.) So the Mongoose random generation system isn't set up to produce such a place.

This isn't to say that PCs would never visit a world with such an extreme temperature or that there isn't a settlement on such a world somewhere in the galaxy, but I think it's left to be something the GM places deliberately.
 
dayriff said:
First the question. What's the lowest atmospheric pressure at which there can reasonably be seas of open water?

Depends partly on the temperature. As you lower the pressure, the boiling point of water decreases too. Below about 0.006 atms, the boiling point is actually below the freezing point, which means that water will go straight from solid ice to water vapour if heated above 273 K (this happens on Mars). Above that pressure, the boiling point rises rapidly to 316 K (43°C) at 0.0095 atms - this covers to atm 1 (Trace). Between 0.1 and 0.4 atms (Very Thin) the boiling point is between 317 K (44°C) and 349 K (76°C). In Thin atms (0.43-0.75 atms) the boiling point is between 350 and 365 K (92°C).

So for low pressures, you can expect the water to boil at lower temperatures, so Hot and Boiling worlds with Very Thin or Trace atmospheres aren't really likely to have H2O on them unless they're Cold or colder (and even then it's most likely to be ice).


Second, the comment. The Burning and Cryonic stuff is interesting, but remember the default is that every system has many worlds. The UWP is just there to represent the "interesting" one that potentially has people living on it. Presumably once you get into the orbital zone of Mercury or Titan, the assumption is that nobody would actually live on the planet. You need so much survival gear to make such a habitat viable, it makes far more sense to live in an orbital. (Circling the relevant world, if there's some resource there that needs to be worked with.) So the Mongoose random generation system isn't set up to produce such a place.

This isn't to say that PCs would never visit a world with such an extreme temperature or that there isn't a settlement on such a world somewhere in the galaxy, but I think it's left to be something the GM places deliberately.

Hehe. Traveller's full of godforsaken, starbaked (or frozen) rockballs or insidious hellholes that are in the inner or outer zone that have billions of people on them. I agree that it makes no sense for people to live there (at least not in large numbers), but that's Traveller for you. ;)
 
EDG said:
Atm D was Very Dense at the surface but thin enough to breathe at altitude (though for higher surface pressures the breathable altitude is way higher than any mountaintops), and Atm E was (Thin minus 0.2 atms) in the valleys.

(and yes, I know CT's atm E wasn't the same as Mongoose's atm E (which is actually CT's atm F). But CT's atm E was silly - you can't get ellipsoidal atmospheres like that).

It seemed at the time that adding D & E were specific attempts to model two of Niven's Known Space worlds. Jinx was an ellipsoidal planet with a spherical atmosphere, and Plateau was only habitable in the high mountains. Does anyone know if that is correct?
 
Supergamera said:
Does anyone know if that is correct?
Unfortunately I do not remember the source, but I am sure that I did
read it somewhere, although I do not know whether the author was
someone with "insider knowledge".
 
Supergamera said:
It seemed at the time that adding D & E were specific attempts to model two of Niven's Known Space worlds. Jinx was an ellipsoidal planet with a spherical atmosphere, and Plateau was only habitable in the high mountains. Does anyone know if that is correct?

It might be where they came from - AFAIK the first time the D/E/F atms appeared was 1982 in CT Supplement 10: Solomani Rim (and then they were included in Scouts in 1983).

D and F atmospheres are possible on massive planets with short scale heights (one scale height is the height at which the atmosphere drops to 1/e (about 37%) of its surface pressure, and is shorter with higher gravity) - if the scale height is small and the surface pressure is high then you can get pressures at high altitude where the atmosphere is breathable. Type F atms are similar but have lower pressures at the surface, but they rely on the surface topography to trap the atmosphere in the lowlands.

Ellipsoidal worlds are pretty nonsensical. If a planet's solid surface is distorted by a tidal bulge then its atmosphere will certainly be affected MORE by those same forces, not magically stay spherical.
 
Well, Very Dense atmospheres were mentioned in a Poul Anderson book (one of his Dominic Flandry books) and Hal Clements has a little book some may have heard of that had an ellipictal world with a spherical atmosphere.

Both of those are 70s SciFi.
 
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