Using High Efficiency Batteries for Jump Drives

[AnotherDilbert]

Following up on the info in the Farcebook post, it seems this has been explicitly legal since High Guard 2022 Update came out, as the X-Boat does the same thing.

It was quite possible in HG'16.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Sure, but it is a flatly nonsensical statement Power from a fusion plant is not different in kind from power from a fission plant or a gas turbine.

Not the power, but the how the power plant works...

MgT2 JTAS#2, Jumpspace, p126:
When the jump drive is activated, a large store of fuel is fed through the ship’s power plant to create the energy necessary for the jump drive. In the interests of rapid energy generation, the power plant does not work at full efficiency and some of the fuel is lost in carrying off fusion by-products and in cooling the system. At the end of a very brief period (less than a few minutes), the jump drive capacitors have been charged to capacity. Under computer control, the energy is then fed into appropriate sections of the jump drive and jump begins.

Fusion plants (and AM) can do this, fission can't, in Traveller at least.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I picked a random ship from Traders and Gunboats to get a glimpse at how they are designing ships. With everything entered (though they didn't allocate everything so that it fit with the right amount of cargo space left over and even double stacking the crew, they don't all fit) the ship is powered to do everything, coming in only 2 power points short of meeting all needs--including jump--simultaneously. So, the official designs--based on admittedly one ship--seem to not be saving any space by shorting the power plant.

They generally have some extra Power to support retrofitted weapons, to cater for adventurers...

 

[Sigtrygg]

Quantum entanglement is the phenomenon where the quantum state of each particle in a group cannot be described independently of the state of the others, even when the particles are separated by a large distance.


If we combine these two concepts, it might explain why energy remembers from which source it sprang from.

Hence, the requirement for fusion reactors to power jump drives.

Throwing science buzzwords doesn't help when some people understand those words and know what you have written is handwavium at best.

The energy stored in a battery is a different accounting system to the energy in electricity, which is a different accounting system to the energy going into the jump field, which is different to the accounting system of the energy released during fusion... it is why scientists talk about differnt forms or stores of energy. Energy has no mechanism to "remember" because it isn't a tangible thing.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Not the power, but the how the power plant works...


Fusion plants (and AM) can do this, fission can't, in Traveller at least.

Neither can collectors, yet they can jump without hydrogen.

So why can't you rig up a battery to a collector, get rid of the collector canopy, saving volume, then fill the saved volume with batteries and a fission power plant?
No hydrogen is needed. No fusion power plant or antimatter power plant is used.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Collector - no hydrogen required for jump bubble, therefore a hydrogen filled jump bubble is not necessary.

Battery - can provide the energy needed to power the jump drive.

Power plant of any type - fills the battery.

Somewhere the rule of unintended consequence has gained sentience and is laughing at MgT inconsistency

 

[MasterGwydion]

Not the power, but the how the power plant works...

Then they need to rewrite the battery rule so that power is power is power. There is no reason for power to be different from a fission plant, a fusion plant, or a solar plant. Once that power is in the battery, it should all be the same.

Fusion plants (and AM) can do this, fission can't, in Traveller at least.

This was a stupid idea from the word go. It was a stupid way of explaining in game why the writers wanted ships to lose most of their tonnage to fuel. Traveller is not materially different if you do not even use hydrogen jump fuel. Just power the J-drive as normal from the from the reactor. Simple, easy. Plenty of examples in the real world for how ships function while only using a small percentage of their volume for fuel. Jumping still takes a week. There is still no FTL communications. What real problem is solved by using jump fuel as opposed to just using PPs to power the J-drive?

 

[Arkathan]

^ It would make more sense to increase the size of the Jump drive to +10% per parsec.

 

[Terry Mixon]

^ It would make more sense to increase the size of the Jump drive to +10% per parsec.

That would do it, and add I. The current jump drive size. You’d lose out on refueling at gas giants, and ships could cross the voids easily, so there would be knock on effects.

 

[Arkathan]

Yep.
You wouldn't lose out that much on gas giants. Still need power plant fuel. Just would not take as long to dip, and you would only need it every other time.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Also, there's an interesting note there that "Ship can operate automatically without any crew."

The whole idea that ships have to have someone aboard is bunkum. It’s a rediculous rule that they made up to try to make sure there were no automated ships that can’t stand up to the slightest scrutiny. I think the few paragraphs that say that have variants of “for unknown reasons” three times.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Neither can collectors, yet they can jump without hydrogen.

It's not about the hydrogen, it's about delivering vast amounts of power very quickly, which fusion, AM, and collectors can apparently do, but other power plants can't.

The needed power is just a primer, or my personal handwave a representation of the capacity of the power plant needed to burn the jump fuel.

The needed power is in addition to the real power normally generated by burning the jump fuel, which is vastly more.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Then they need to rewrite the battery rule so that power is power is power. There is no reason for power to be different from a fission plant, a fusion plant, or a solar plant. Once that power is in the battery, it should all be the same.

Yes, of course it is...

But that is just a small part of the power needed to jump.

This was a stupid idea from the word go. It was a stupid way of explaining in game why the writers wanted ships to lose most of their tonnage to fuel. Traveller is not materially different if you do not even use hydrogen jump fuel.

It's very different from Asimov's jump ship, that made many jumps in quick succession to reach the destination, far away. It limited Traveller ships to a jump, then you had to get more fuel, slowing down the game, making it more difficult to leave the subsector the referee had mapped out.

 

[Sigtrygg]

It's not about the hydrogen, it's about delivering vast amounts of power very quickly, which fusion, AM, and collectors can apparently do, but other power plants can't.

Yet batteries can also do so now.

The needed power is just a primer, or my personal handwave a representation of the capacity of the power plant needed to burn the jump fuel.

Ah, a house rule. I do it the same way

The rules as written allow you to fire up the jump drive with batteries, no power plant needed.

"This Power can then be used in subsequent rounds as if they were being produced by the power plant; simply add the amount of Power stored within the batteries (they need not be completely drained) to the Power the ship has available that round."

So somehow the jump drive knows the batteries were filled by a fusion or antimatter power plant?

"Jump Drive: In order to use the jump drive, the ship requires an amount of Power equal to 10% of the hull’s total tonnage multiplied by the maximum jump number the drive is capable of. Only fusion and antimatter power plants can generate the intense burst of energy
necessary to operate a jump drive.* In either case, the power plant must be used to inject hydrogen into a jump bubble**, so alternative fuels cannot be used. Note that this Power requirement is only needed when the ship actually initiates a jump – at all other times, the jump drive remains inert."

*contradicted by collectors and batteries
**contradicted by collectors

The hydrogen filled jump bubble should be removed.

The needed power is in addition to the real power normally generated by burning the jump fuel, which is vastly more.

Collectors don't use jump fuel.

And round and round we go.

 

[Sigtrygg]

But that is just a small part of the power needed to jump.

Not according to the rules as written.

 

[Arkathan]

And why do you need a power plant to inject hydrogen into a bubble, when a power plant outputs either Helium or Lithium, depending upon your design Guzzintah.

 

[Geir]

#truth

I suppose we need a bicycle-powered jump drive. They might be there a while.

One million hamsters spinning one million little wheels attached to little generators attached to batteries will eventually produce a jump. However, the amount of hamster food required will exceed the amount of hydrogen required for the jump itself... and then there's the hamster... byproducts.

 

[Geir]

It's not about the hydrogen, it's about delivering vast amounts of power very quickly, which fusion, AM, and collectors can apparently do, but other power plants can't.

The needed power is just a primer, or my personal handwave a representation of the capacity of the power plant needed to burn the jump fuel.

The needed power is in addition to the real power normally generated by burning the jump fuel, which is vastly more.

I wish the high efficiency batteries had been called capacitors or supercapacitors instead, then the rapid discharge could be more easily handwaved.

 

[Terry Mixon]

I wish the high efficiency batteries had been called capacitors or supercapacitors instead, then the rapid discharge could be more easily handwaved.

Something to revisit when High Guard gets a facelift.

 

[Geir]

Something to revisit when High Guard gets a facelift.

I may have handwaved into something and broken a finger.
There's also the 'jump drive capacitors' that absorb damage directly and store 50 points of 'damage' at Cr3 per ton. Don't know how to convert damage into power points, especially when a 1D beam laser and a 2D pulse laser both need 4 power points to use... now I have to stir the pot with that broken finger...