Using High Efficiency Batteries for Jump Drives

[AnotherDilbert]

It does indeed, what am I missing? Where does it say the power plant feeds energy to onitiate jump and then the jump drive or power plant then generates even more?
...
Where does it state the jump drive requires a larger burst of energy than that required by the drive?

You need a tremendous amount of energy in an intense burst of power, far more than a fission power plant or battery can provide.

Core, p157:
Divert Power: A jump drive requires a tremendous amount of power to function, which must be supplied by the ship’s power plant.

HG'22, p17:
Jump Drive: In order to use the jump drive, the ship requires an amount of Power equal to 10% of the hull’s total tonnage multiplied by the maximum jump number the drive is capable of. Only fusion and antimatter power plants can generate the intense burst of energy necessary to operate a jump drive.

So, it's not just a few points of Power.

Traveller uses the term fuel to refer to the hydrogen used during the jump process, it is not burnt as fuel.

Nothing in the rules say that ALL the fuel is ejected... You can only believe that, by redefining the word "fuel".

As far as I can tell it is only used to maintain the jump bubble.

It's A use, not necessarily the only use...
If a large amount of hydrogen ejecta was necessary, Collectors wouldn't function, as you have often pointed out.


It's completely consistent with the age-old fluff, restated in MgT2:

JTAS#2:
When the jump drive is activated, a large store of fuel is fed through the ship’s power plant to create the energy necessary for the jump drive. In the interests of rapid energy generation, the power plant does not work at full efficiency and some of the fuel is lost in carrying off fusion by-products and in cooling the system. At the end of a very brief period (less than a few minutes), the jump drive capacitors have been charged to capacity. Under computer control, the energy is then fed into appropriate sections of the jump drive and jump begins.

Nothing says all of the fuel is fused, nor that all the fuel is ejected.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

T4 is where the hydrogen filled bubble comes from, there is no mention of it in T5 that I have found.

Quite, and it says:

T4 FF&S, p12:
The fuel remaining in the jump drive's surge tank is used to create a thin hydrogen atmosphere around the ship during jump, which helps to delay the collapse of the jump bubble.

It's just a little left over fuel that is ejected, most of the jump fuel is consumed before jump as usual.

 

[Condottiere]

1. You could always just double the energy requirements for jumping.

2. At the same time, make it optional for a fusion reactor to temporarily overclock two hundred percent.

 

[Vormaerin]

I'm confused.

The L-Hydrogen is fuel. That fuel is consumed by the power plant to create a huge surge of energy for the jump drive to function.

If you think the collector is accumulating fuel, do you think the collector is dumping its load into the power plant so it can produce the energy spike needed by the jump drive?

Because my understanding is that the collector produces a huge spike of power that goes straight to the jump drive. The collector cannot power the ship, because the collector dumps all it's power at once, which is great for a jump drive and not so good for keeping the air conditioning on for a week.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The L-Hydrogen is fuel. That fuel is consumed by the power plant to create a huge surge of energy for the jump drive to function.

Agreed.

If you think the collector is accumulating fuel, do you think the collector is dumping its load into the power plant so it can produce the energy spike needed by the jump drive?

No, it collect energy "somehow" storing it in "something", by pure magic or something close enough for our primitive understanding.
Then it dumps that energy directly into the jump drive (at least by other editions), replacing the need for the power surge produced by burning the jump fuel, thereby obviating the need for jump fuel.

The jump drive still needs a few points of Power from the power plant for "something" (as in T4).

Because my understanding is that the collector produces a huge spike of power that goes straight to the jump drive.

Agreed.

The collector cannot power the ship, because the collector dumps all it's power at once, which is great for a jump drive and not so good for keeping the air conditioning on for a week.

Or something like that, agreed. I have no idea how a Collector actually works... There are some "exotic particles" involved somehow.

 

[Sigtrygg]

You need a tremendous amount of energy in an intense burst of power, far more than a fission power plant or battery can provide.

So, it's not just a few points of Power.

The only numbers given are those in HG. The "tremendous amount of power to function" is not specified in the CRB, it is in HG "In order to use the jump drive, the ship requires an amount of Power equal to 10% of the hull’s total tonnage multiplied by the maximum jump number the drive is capable of. Only fusion and antimatter power plants can generate the intense burst of energy necessary to operate a jump drive." The "intense burst" is the calculated amount of EPs.

Nothing in the rules say that ALL the fuel is ejected... You can only believe that, by redefining the word "fuel".

It is clear that they do not mean fuel in the literal sense since its only uses are as an actual fuel for the power plant and filling the jump bubble.

It's A use, not necessarily the only use...

It is the only one given.

If a large amount of hydrogen ejecta was necessary, Collectors wouldn't function, as you have often pointed out.

I am well aware of the inconsistency.

It's completely consistent with the age-old fluff, restated in MgT2:

You are using a different book that has been ignored by the authors of the CRB and HG.

Nothing says all of the fuel is fused, nor that all the fuel is ejected.

But that is not in the CRB or HG, which is where the rules are rather than fluff...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

1. You could always just double the energy requirements for jumping.

Then we would just need a little larger battery and a tiny fission power plant.

The jump drive does not need a little more power to replace the jump fuel, but hundreds of times more. More than can realistically be produced the slow way, or stored in normal batteries.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Not according to the rules as written or the ships that are now canon.

 

[Condottiere]

Traveller mechanics is in six minute periods.

If you feel that the fusion reactor has to have a blitz moment where it's energizing the jump drive with massive amperage, you'll have to go into dogfight mode.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The only numbers given are those in HG. The "tremendous amount of power to function" is not specified in the CRB, it is in HG "In order to use the jump drive, the ship requires an amount of Power equal to 10% of the hull’s total tonnage multiplied by the maximum jump number the drive is capable of. Only fusion and antimatter power plants can generate the intense burst of energy necessary to operate a jump drive." The "intense burst" is the calculated amount of EPs.

The regular Power consumption is not a "tremendous amount of power to function" or "intense burst of energy". Nothing like that is written about the M-drive or basic power requirements that are of similar size.

Without the "tremendous amount of power" that can only be generated as an "intense burst of energy" by fusion or AM plants we would of course not need the jump fuel...

It is clear that they do not mean fuel in the literal sense since its only uses are as an actual fuel for the power plant and filling the jump bubble.

It is deliberately not clear, as is the Mongoose way. They made it clear that it works the same way as all other editions with the JTAS article.

It is the only one given.

I think there was something said about a "intense burst of power" and fuel? Fuel means it is, at least partly, burnt for power.
Jump fuel can be replaced by Collectors, that:

HG'22, p83:
COLLECTORS
These are accumulators, sweeping up exotic particles captured by a canopy and removing the need to carry separate fuel for the jump drive. This charge is released in a single spike to power a jump drive; collectors cannot be used for normal ship operations.

A Collector is not the same as a solar panel connected to a High Efficiency Battery, which they would be if all you needed was a few points of Power to jump..

I am well aware of the inconsistency.

There is no inconsistency, unless you assume things you don't need to assume...

You are using a different book that has been ignored by the authors of the CRB and HG.

How has it been ignored? Does HG explicitly say anything that is inconsistent with the Jumpspace article?

But that is not in the CRB or HG, which is where the rules are rather than fluff...

So, Core and HG describes in excruciating detail how the jump fuel is used and disposed of?
No, they don't.

You assume all "fuel" is ejected, which the HG does not say.
You assume no fuel is burnt, which HG does not say.
If, as the Jumpspace article and T4 states, some fuel is burned and some is ejected, there is no inconsistency...

HG'22, p15 only says:
Jump drives create a bubble of hyperspace by means of injecting high-energy exotic particles into an artificial singularity. The singularity is driven out of our universe, creating a tiny parallel universe that is then blown up like a balloon by injecting hydrogen into it.

So, we need some "exotic particles" and some hydrogen ejecta, unspecified how much.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Not according to the rules as written or the ships that are now canon.

What ship jumps without a power plant?
What ship jumps without jump fuel or a Collector?

 

[Sigtrygg]

The regular Power consumption is not a "tremendous amount of power to function" or "intense burst of energy". Nothing like that is written about the M-drive or basic power requirements that are of similar size.

That is your interpretation.
The rules say you need x amount of energy to power the jump drive.
The rules and the canonical ships show that this can come from batteries.

Without the "tremendous amount of power" that can only be generated as an "intense burst of energy" by fusion or AM plants we would of course not need the jump fuel...

Agin you are reading into the adjectives something that is not there in the rules or the canonical ships. Jump fuel is not necessary to jump.

It is deliberately not clear, as is the Mongoose way. They made it clear that it works the same way as all other editions with the JTAS article.

Not quite. They reprinted MWM's article from JTAS 24 without taking the time to ensure compatibility with MgT.

I think there was something said about a "intense burst of power" and fuel?

Where are the numbers? It is handwave and fluff, the rules and the canonical designs are actual examples.

Fuel means it is, at least partly, burnt for power.
Jump fuel can be replaced by Collectors, that:

A Collector is not the same as a solar panel connected to a High Efficiency Battery, which they would be if all you needed was a few points of Power to jump..

I am aware of that, I'm the idiot who invented the exotic particle explanation...

There is no inconsistency, unless you assume things you don't need to assume...

We are explicitly told that a hydrogen filled jump bubble is used, except it isn't.
We are explicitly told we need a fusion or AM power plant, except when we don't.

How has it been ignored? Does HG explicitly say anything that is inconsistent with the Jumpspace article?

Yes. And so does the core rulebook.

So, Core and HG describes in excruciating detail how the jump fuel is used and disposed of?
No, they don't.

They describe in game terms and details, contradicitng themselves and the JTAS article into the bargain.

You assume all "fuel" is ejected, which the HG does not say.

Where have I said that I assume that?
I have stated that the rules only mention jump fuel being used to inflate the jump bubble.
My assumptions for my game are very different,Ii am just stating what the rules state, while you are making assumptions based on contradictory articles, contradictory systems, and gaps in the rules.

You assume no fuel is burnt, which HG does not say.

I assume no such thing, I am stating what the rules say.

If, as the Jumpspace article and T4 states, some fuel is burned and some is ejected, there is no inconsistency...

We are discussing MgT, the core rules and the rules in High Guard.

So, we need some "exotic particles" and some hydrogen ejecta, unspecified how much.

No hydrogen is needed for a collector...

 

[Sigtrygg]

What ship jumps without a power plant?
What ship jumps without jump fuel or a Collector?

Ships with a power plant not capable of generating enough EPs for the jump drive and are therefore powered directly from batteries.

The x-boat for example:
"The jump drive is powered by the battery, which is recharged during refuelling operations by an express boat tender"

 

[Sigtrygg]

The MgT jump paradigm:

"Jump travel is the only known means by which a vessel may travel faster than light. To jump, a ship creates a bubble of hyperspace by means of injecting high energy exotic particles into an artificial singularity.* The singularity is driven out of our universe, creating a tiny parallel universe that is then blown up like a balloon by injecting hydrogen into it**. The jump bubble is folded around the ship, carrying it into the little pocket universe."

*Somehow fusion plants, AM plants, and now batteries, can power this. Collectors collect the high energy exotic particles from the fabric of spacetime itself.
**Collectors can not do this, and the rules state no fuel is needed at all.

 

[MasterGwydion]

They are correct on the X-Boat example. The battery bank is rated at 40. The power plant at 20.
The basic requirements are 20. The jump drive is 40.
The batteries power the drive, because there is no other source onboard capable of doing so.

Wait a minute? The jump drives have their own capacitors. You can charge them up over time already. You do not need to run directly from the power plant. You can charge them up while heading out to 100D and then jump. Why use batteries when the jump drive already has capacitors?

 

[Arkathan]

Wait a minute? The jump drives have their own capacitors. You can charge them up over time already. You do not need to run directly from the power plant. You can charge them up while heading out to 100D and then jump. Why use batteries when the jump drive already has capacitors?

I dunno. Ask Mongoose. They made it. At least twice and maybe three times.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Wait a minute? The jump drives have their own capacitors. You can charge them up over time already. You do not need to run directly from the power plant. You can charge them up while heading out to 100D and then jump. Why use batteries when the jump drive already has capacitors?

Because, handwavium handwavium handwavium... look over there.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Okay... So, TL-14. Collectors. Jump 5. Maneuver 1. No Jump Fuel. Massive amount of cargo that can be transported J-5 at minimal cost versus a traditional J-5 ship running the same route. @Terry Mixon What is the verdict on this? Is it viable?

 

[Terry Mixon]

Okay... So, TL-14. Collectors. Jump 5. Maneuver 1. No Jump Fuel. Massive amount of cargo that can be transported J-5 at minimal cost versus a traditional J-5 ship running the same route. @Terry Mixon What is the verdict on this? Is it viable?

If collectors weren’t niche tech, absolutely. I’ll work up a version of this later today just to look at it.

 

[Arkathan]

Okay... So, TL-14. Collectors. Jump 5. Maneuver 1. No Jump Fuel. Massive amount of cargo that can be transported J-5 at minimal cost versus a traditional J-5 ship running the same route. @Terry Mixon What is the verdict on this? Is it viable?

Have to dock at a station (questionable)/unrep or use craft to move the goods, because you have to be stationary to use collectors for a week. Otherwise, should be doable.