"Useless" units
- Thread starter Paladin
- Start date
Gauntlet-
Banded Mongoose
Well for the Arachnids:
The Spider Bug:
First and foremost, and I have argued this allot, and there are tons of ways to make it more useful... but in general as it stands now it is 2 warriors for the price of 2 warriors, in One Easier-To-Kill Package.
It is only vaguely useful for the 'point grab' for its kills adn the occasional jump. Generally speaking many players don't remember to keep proper track of the points though, or they just don't care to.
Spider Bugs in my mind should be based more on the show- weaker than warriors, but faster, with a special abillity.
Possible Options to improve:
All Terrain: Climb 8" Ignores terrain movement penalties (8 legs does something for you!) Move 8 (no Jump?)
Web Attack: Range 6, D6 damage, Models successfully hit but not killed cannot react.
Basic CC damage should be a D10 or perhaps 2D6+2... the 4D6 is kind of excessive in my opinion.
Blister Bug:
The Fire Fry outstrips it in every respect:
Effective Range for BB: 18
Effective Range for FF: 21 (+3)
Damage for both: D10
Blister has Piercing-
FF Jumps, thus rare or no movement penalties, and accrues less possible reactions before the firing.
BB walks closer to the target- within 12, meaning a good firing will often accrue reaction first, for example when going around corners! This means less bugs end up firing, this negates most of the armor advantages it has over the FF.
Ways to imporve: boost the damage, give it tunneling, or perhaps the range- Merge its stats with the Blaster Bug and get rid of one of them.
Blaster Bug:
Vaguely useful, it is the only medium range bug, and it outstrips the FF on effective range, but overall the ability to ignore most terrain problems and LOS issues with the FF makes them even. I would merge the stats of the Blaster and Blister to something better, and make a new Blaster Bug that was actually a half-way to tanker, IE the Atomic Blaster Bug from the show.
Mantis Hunter Bug:
Its actually 'all right' but the crippled rule really, cripples it! I would give it the option of purchasing 1 psyich talent (Not Rupture though) If it could ego war and then lunge in it would be both cool and more skillful/fun.
Assassin Bug:
The cripple rule... otherwise its fine.
Cliff Mites:
Don't change em, I like them useless! Though you can pay 50 points for a 'decoy tunnel marker' 25 for the marker and 25 for 5 cliff mites lol...
Rippler Bugs
Okay they are not useless- but I find them a tad under powered, I just think the dodge/armor save should be the same as a Hopper... or I dunno the movement... I just don't feel they are effective aside from being in the air phase, and I personally want to see the air phase for bugs restricted to just AA work.
Tiger Bugs
Make them move 8.
Guard Bugs
Cripple Rule
Royal Warrior Bugs
A variant I want- it has jump 12 lol but -One Shot-
The Spider Bug:
First and foremost, and I have argued this allot, and there are tons of ways to make it more useful... but in general as it stands now it is 2 warriors for the price of 2 warriors, in One Easier-To-Kill Package.
It is only vaguely useful for the 'point grab' for its kills adn the occasional jump. Generally speaking many players don't remember to keep proper track of the points though, or they just don't care to.
Spider Bugs in my mind should be based more on the show- weaker than warriors, but faster, with a special abillity.
Possible Options to improve:
All Terrain: Climb 8" Ignores terrain movement penalties (8 legs does something for you!) Move 8 (no Jump?)
Web Attack: Range 6, D6 damage, Models successfully hit but not killed cannot react.
Basic CC damage should be a D10 or perhaps 2D6+2... the 4D6 is kind of excessive in my opinion.
Blister Bug:
The Fire Fry outstrips it in every respect:
Effective Range for BB: 18
Effective Range for FF: 21 (+3)
Damage for both: D10
Blister has Piercing-
FF Jumps, thus rare or no movement penalties, and accrues less possible reactions before the firing.
BB walks closer to the target- within 12, meaning a good firing will often accrue reaction first, for example when going around corners! This means less bugs end up firing, this negates most of the armor advantages it has over the FF.
Ways to imporve: boost the damage, give it tunneling, or perhaps the range- Merge its stats with the Blaster Bug and get rid of one of them.
Blaster Bug:
Vaguely useful, it is the only medium range bug, and it outstrips the FF on effective range, but overall the ability to ignore most terrain problems and LOS issues with the FF makes them even. I would merge the stats of the Blaster and Blister to something better, and make a new Blaster Bug that was actually a half-way to tanker, IE the Atomic Blaster Bug from the show.
Mantis Hunter Bug:
Its actually 'all right' but the crippled rule really, cripples it! I would give it the option of purchasing 1 psyich talent (Not Rupture though) If it could ego war and then lunge in it would be both cool and more skillful/fun.
Assassin Bug:
The cripple rule... otherwise its fine.
Cliff Mites:
Don't change em, I like them useless! Though you can pay 50 points for a 'decoy tunnel marker' 25 for the marker and 25 for 5 cliff mites lol...
Rippler Bugs
Okay they are not useless- but I find them a tad under powered, I just think the dodge/armor save should be the same as a Hopper... or I dunno the movement... I just don't feel they are effective aside from being in the air phase, and I personally want to see the air phase for bugs restricted to just AA work.
Tiger Bugs
Make them move 8.
Guard Bugs
Cripple Rule
Royal Warrior Bugs
A variant I want- it has jump 12 lol but -One Shot-
As a fan of the entire genre, the only useless units are the ones I don't have figures for.
Even something like Stalwart Bug field generators I'll work into a game since I do mostly scenario games.
Last week I ran a game and the bugfield generators became the primary focus of the game. A Sicon Agent, LAMI Lieutenant, and LAMI squad with a Reliant twin 50 camped on an ammo dump inside a 4 pole bugfield. There was a PAMI platoon with 2 squads and a Lieutenant, and a platoon of 6 Ape Marauders sent to relieve them by being able to drop onto the table. The Bugs were numerous- Brain, 60 Warriors with Carrion Bug, 10 Tiger Warriors, 2 Mantis Hunters, and Infiltrator Bug, and 5 Blaster Bugs plus tunnel assets. Getting the Sicon Agent off the board was the MI victory condition and it became obvious to the Arachnid players that taking out the Stalwart Bug Field Generators was the most important thing to do. It was a quick game. The LAMI needed some plasma mines outside the perimeter as choke points because the Bugs launched themselves at the 4 hit generators and just needed to take one of them out to open up half the perimeter. The first assault was successful.
Even something like Stalwart Bug field generators I'll work into a game since I do mostly scenario games.
Last week I ran a game and the bugfield generators became the primary focus of the game. A Sicon Agent, LAMI Lieutenant, and LAMI squad with a Reliant twin 50 camped on an ammo dump inside a 4 pole bugfield. There was a PAMI platoon with 2 squads and a Lieutenant, and a platoon of 6 Ape Marauders sent to relieve them by being able to drop onto the table. The Bugs were numerous- Brain, 60 Warriors with Carrion Bug, 10 Tiger Warriors, 2 Mantis Hunters, and Infiltrator Bug, and 5 Blaster Bugs plus tunnel assets. Getting the Sicon Agent off the board was the MI victory condition and it became obvious to the Arachnid players that taking out the Stalwart Bug Field Generators was the most important thing to do. It was a quick game. The LAMI needed some plasma mines outside the perimeter as choke points because the Bugs launched themselves at the 4 hit generators and just needed to take one of them out to open up half the perimeter. The first assault was successful.
Galatea said:
Can't help thinking the MI would love a weapon that rolled D6 D10's. . .
I won’t say how, but the cripple rule has been tweaked and most units should be ready to rock in WOTS.
Blister Bug: I don’t have that big of a problem with it. The tougher range and armor/kill helps it over the firefry. Different enough to be functional.
Blaster Bug: The longer range is useful for corralling MI troopers. Ignoring terrain with the flame makes them very useful. Keep em as is.
Brain bug: Leave it as is.
Burrower Bug: Leave it as is.
Cliff Mites: I like the concept of cannon fodder. A Move 5” would make them slightly more viable but the low cost makes for interesting ideas. If the enemy shoots them they ignore other more valuable targets, if they don’t shoot them, they close on ya.
Control Bugs: never used them yet so I’m not sure.
Firefrys: Work just fine as rapid, one hit wonders.
Hoppers: Almost spot on. Make them match Warrriors stats exactly with a dodge and swap Tunnel for Hover.
Infilitrator Bug: I’ve only used it once and it was highly effective. Can’t offer much of an opinion other than speculation due to limited use.
King Tanker: A tad over priced. You are better off paying a bit more for 2 standard tankers. Drop the point to 400 and leave it alone otherwise.
Mantises: I’d prefer they both drop about 10-15 pts as they tend to be 1-2 round wonders as they get gunned down by concentrated fire on a single target.
Overseer Bug: Needs to be slightly faster or have something else. As is it’s an overpriced mini that leads to your entire force being paralyzed for a round when it dies.
Queen Bug: Never used one, but the points seem high compared to it’s effectiveness. It needs something cool and unique to match it’s nature. Like a command radius of the whole board not just 6”.
Plasma Bug: As is.
Rippler Bugs: leave em as is.
Spider Bug: To me this isn’t the best bug. I agree with Gauntlet that it’s really just two warrior stuck in one. Up the jump to 10-12” and I might be interested. A upgrade variant with a web ball that reduced a <= Size 3 target to 1 action and no reactions until it takes a Ready action would be awesome.
Thorny Tanker: Leave it as is.
Tiger Bugs: I agree on the move of 8.
Guard Bugs: leave em.
Royal Warrior Bugs: sounds interesting
==============================================
Of the Mobile Infantry the only unit I’ve seen that needs to be tweaked is the CHAS. It’s such a cool concept and has lots of potential to be deadly but it’s just so fragile due to it’s pathetic armor save. Offer an armor upgrade to drop it to a 3-4+ and it would be excellent.
And there needs to be a SICON officer in a power suit for more flexibility.
Blister Bug: I don’t have that big of a problem with it. The tougher range and armor/kill helps it over the firefry. Different enough to be functional.
Blaster Bug: The longer range is useful for corralling MI troopers. Ignoring terrain with the flame makes them very useful. Keep em as is.
Brain bug: Leave it as is.
Burrower Bug: Leave it as is.
Cliff Mites: I like the concept of cannon fodder. A Move 5” would make them slightly more viable but the low cost makes for interesting ideas. If the enemy shoots them they ignore other more valuable targets, if they don’t shoot them, they close on ya.
Control Bugs: never used them yet so I’m not sure.
Firefrys: Work just fine as rapid, one hit wonders.
Hoppers: Almost spot on. Make them match Warrriors stats exactly with a dodge and swap Tunnel for Hover.
Infilitrator Bug: I’ve only used it once and it was highly effective. Can’t offer much of an opinion other than speculation due to limited use.
King Tanker: A tad over priced. You are better off paying a bit more for 2 standard tankers. Drop the point to 400 and leave it alone otherwise.
Mantises: I’d prefer they both drop about 10-15 pts as they tend to be 1-2 round wonders as they get gunned down by concentrated fire on a single target.
Overseer Bug: Needs to be slightly faster or have something else. As is it’s an overpriced mini that leads to your entire force being paralyzed for a round when it dies.
Queen Bug: Never used one, but the points seem high compared to it’s effectiveness. It needs something cool and unique to match it’s nature. Like a command radius of the whole board not just 6”.
Plasma Bug: As is.
Rippler Bugs: leave em as is.
Spider Bug: To me this isn’t the best bug. I agree with Gauntlet that it’s really just two warrior stuck in one. Up the jump to 10-12” and I might be interested. A upgrade variant with a web ball that reduced a <= Size 3 target to 1 action and no reactions until it takes a Ready action would be awesome.
Thorny Tanker: Leave it as is.
Tiger Bugs: I agree on the move of 8.
Guard Bugs: leave em.
Royal Warrior Bugs: sounds interesting
==============================================
Of the Mobile Infantry the only unit I’ve seen that needs to be tweaked is the CHAS. It’s such a cool concept and has lots of potential to be deadly but it’s just so fragile due to it’s pathetic armor save. Offer an armor upgrade to drop it to a 3-4+ and it would be excellent.
And there needs to be a SICON officer in a power suit for more flexibility.
I would like cliff mites to have a cheap model, to match their stats.
I would use tons of them, because I like hordes of cheap, weak, units, but I couldn't justify the cost, and I didn't like the mini enough.
I love the overseer models, but it needs stats that match its appearance. A built-in ranged attack would be great.
There's piles of MI gear that I've never bothered to use. Shocksticks, Grenades, lizard-lines. I'll put em on a list, or equip a mini, and never bother to use them.
I can't really imagine using a Fleet Landing party. Maybe give them something really unique?
Skinnies are the champ for uselessness though.
Militia/Raiders/Soldiers are almost all the same unit, save for weapons choice. They need more differentiation, in my book. Same with Gaurd and Venerables.
Cabal don't seem effective enough for the points, and I've never really bothered (see also, Brutes, Slaves)
Ditto speeders. Not enough punch, too expensive.
Also, Venerable Marauder, hard to get in a list, not really worth the points? I shouldn't say since again, I never bothered with one.
Everyone already knows how I feel about most of the skinnie models, so I'll stop there.
I would use tons of them, because I like hordes of cheap, weak, units, but I couldn't justify the cost, and I didn't like the mini enough.
I love the overseer models, but it needs stats that match its appearance. A built-in ranged attack would be great.
There's piles of MI gear that I've never bothered to use. Shocksticks, Grenades, lizard-lines. I'll put em on a list, or equip a mini, and never bother to use them.
I can't really imagine using a Fleet Landing party. Maybe give them something really unique?
Skinnies are the champ for uselessness though.
Militia/Raiders/Soldiers are almost all the same unit, save for weapons choice. They need more differentiation, in my book. Same with Gaurd and Venerables.
Cabal don't seem effective enough for the points, and I've never really bothered (see also, Brutes, Slaves)
Ditto speeders. Not enough punch, too expensive.
Also, Venerable Marauder, hard to get in a list, not really worth the points? I shouldn't say since again, I never bothered with one.
Everyone already knows how I feel about most of the skinnie models, so I'll stop there.
A
Anonymous
Guest
Hoppers are fine the way they are. Spiders in my experience have been a little less than pleasing. Tanker could be left alone as well, especially when going against a sniper rifle with accurate.
Rabidchild
Mongoose
No unit is worthless, but there are a few units that I think are not worth their cost.
Spider Bugs: Cost of two warriors, attacks of two warriors, but only one model. The jump is too short to make them worth taking.
Overseer Bug: I want to love this unit. The model is one of the best ever, but losing an action for the entire army when they die runs contrary to their heavy armor and close combat nature. Simply drop that flaw and I'm sold!
Cougars: Why take them instead of Grizzlies? They're the same cost and you get twice the weaponry and a 2+ save, losing 3" of jump movement and a re-rollable 6+ dodge. The only ones I've seen taken were for officers to make it more like the book, or by me because I like the models more than the Grizzlies.
MicroSupport Platforms. The Derringer's only use is as AA or as a long term emplacement, but in general I think it's the lack of mobility that made players in my area (including me) pass on these. (for LAMI they would be great, and give a great feel to that army)
Marauder Nighthawk. Too specialized.
Skinnie Militia. Raiders are just better. If you want cannon fodder go for the slaves.
Emplacements for all races. Try buying a fort or some turrets and play just one game against the MI. They'll keep jumping out, launching missiles, and landing out of LOS until your emplacements are rubble. Otherwise they're great for plot-style games and I love the idea of being able to play Whiskey Outpost.
Spider Bugs: Cost of two warriors, attacks of two warriors, but only one model. The jump is too short to make them worth taking.
Overseer Bug: I want to love this unit. The model is one of the best ever, but losing an action for the entire army when they die runs contrary to their heavy armor and close combat nature. Simply drop that flaw and I'm sold!
Cougars: Why take them instead of Grizzlies? They're the same cost and you get twice the weaponry and a 2+ save, losing 3" of jump movement and a re-rollable 6+ dodge. The only ones I've seen taken were for officers to make it more like the book, or by me because I like the models more than the Grizzlies.
MicroSupport Platforms. The Derringer's only use is as AA or as a long term emplacement, but in general I think it's the lack of mobility that made players in my area (including me) pass on these. (for LAMI they would be great, and give a great feel to that army)
Marauder Nighthawk. Too specialized.
Skinnie Militia. Raiders are just better. If you want cannon fodder go for the slaves.
Emplacements for all races. Try buying a fort or some turrets and play just one game against the MI. They'll keep jumping out, launching missiles, and landing out of LOS until your emplacements are rubble. Otherwise they're great for plot-style games and I love the idea of being able to play Whiskey Outpost.
For 250 points? That's almost a nuke!msprange said:
With that attack it is always better to rush for close combat as 3xD10+D6 WILL kill something. So there obviously is no use for a Tanker with such a weak weapon - the Thorny is always the better choice because it excels at close combat (and has a better save).
If it were D6xD10+D6 it might be alright, but just D10 is completely useless.
D6xD10 is just useless:
3,5 shots on average.
- The individual shot has a 30% chance of not hitting a PAMI (4/4/7) at all.
- The individual shot has a 30% chance of hitting a PAMI (but not killing it instantly), making that a 15% chance of taking him out (due to the 4+ armour role).
- The individual shot has a 40% chance to kill a PAMI instantly.
So the shot has a 45% Chance of doing no damage.
We remember that we have 3,5 shots on average.
This leads us to 1,9 dead PAMI per turn.
This means if you shoot every turn (what will never happen) at a PAMI unit you will (on average) take out 12 models in an entire 6 turn game. And there will probably be turns where you don't kill a single model.
With a Tanker worth 250(!!!)points.
I am sure there are MUCH better choices than this.
p.s. and please don't try to argue with LAMI. These guys are so dirt cheap you would need to annihilate half a platoon in order to get the Tankers points back.
As if they don't have enough to annihilate the world with....msprange said:
Agreed. There was a discussion elsewhere to give them a Pyshic scream type attack. I think that would rock. Hard.nanite said:
Shocksticks get used fairly regularly in my personal armies, esp for leaders or important weapons. Grenades, I don't use too often. Lizard lines are virtually useless as you can jump the same height and we don't use much in the way of really tall terrain. They would make more sense if they had a Climb 8/10.nanite said:
I haven't used it yet, but primarily because I don't see much use. They are too slow and I'd rather buy more of the cheaper/deadlier LAMI.nanite said:
Gauntlet-
Banded Mongoose
I think I'd be happy with blisters if they had Tunnelling, OR make their weapon a short or weaker 'stream' weapon.
But they really do need something to make them worth it, and giving them the option to tunnel isn't very much in the grand scheme of things, but would make them so much more adequate as a choice.
I think the solution in my eyes for Ripplers is to make their base cost 25 points...
Frankly I could see making the Blaster/Blisters 25 too...
But they really do need something to make them worth it, and giving them the option to tunnel isn't very much in the grand scheme of things, but would make them so much more adequate as a choice.
I think the solution in my eyes for Ripplers is to make their base cost 25 points...
Frankly I could see making the Blaster/Blisters 25 too...
