Useful / Favourite Feats?

[Clovenhoof]

I'm still getting acquainted with the rule changes made from D20, and I suppose it's going to take a while.

So far, I have noticed that I wouldn't even know how to spend all my feat slots.

Firstly, several feats have been removed, respectively de-feated, so any character can use the manoeuvre without having to pick it as feat. Think "attack on the run" or the much more accessible Two-weapon fighting, which now only uses up one feat slot for most classes instead of 3+ as in D&D 3rd.

Then there are these various free feats, like Endurance for the Barb and Light Footed for the Thief -- again another feat slot freed up.

Moreover, a character with Barbarian as primary class is effectively barred from taking a whole bunch of feats -- at least I consider it purely idiotic to select a feat like Weapon Focus that I _know_ I'll be losing in a few sessions.
[a while back there was a thread where someone built a sample Barb 6 using 2 Weapon Foci... I just thought WTF, is he trying to make the Barb as ineffective as possible?]

All in all, it seems that Conan characters have more feat slots to fill (favoured class rule) and fewer feats to fill them with. So what to choose, especially as Barbarian?

In D&D I've never been a friend of the Power Attack feat chain (Cleave/Great Cleave), because I found that Great Cleave only works on low-level mobs with very few hit dice. But with the Massive Damage rules in Conan, Great Cleave could be just the way to go.

What are you experiences? Which feats shine, which are a waste?

BTW is there a Feat Tree for printout somewhere, that I could give my players? They are all new to the system and some visualization would surely do a lot for their understanding the feat chain concept.

 

[Krushnak]

some feats ive notcied from my game being particuarly useful are:

improved sunder, greater sunder and breaker. denying your opponents their weapon is extremely handy.

improved unarmed attack. never be without a weapon.

iron will. just in case.

yeah the powerattack feat chain is actually usable in conan with the low massive damage and increased weapon damage, makes fighting a little more realistically dangerous over d@D's just stand there and trade blows until one side runs out of heal spells or potions.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Improved sunder, greater sunder and breaker.

Sunder I know about, but what is Breaker?

Unarmed Strike: well, certainly not bad to have, but that's always been a secondary choice for me. Well it may be more useful in a Conan game, where characters are prone to wake up stripped naked.

Iron Will: yes, definitely. That has always been a must-have for my chars (which are usually fighter-types). Generally in D&D I've always tried to get all saves as high as possible. As I always put it, what use is a fighter that could deal 100 damage in one blow, but doesn't get near the enemy, instead running away and cowering in terror?

Hmmm on another note, do you think it's safe to allow some of the feats from Sword & Fist in a Conan game? It might be a difficult call, because there are some feats that would be very useful (like Knockdown), and some that are so ridiculous I just wouldn't allow them (Monkey Grip).

 

[Krushnak]

breaker is a feat from hyboria's finest that allows you to ignore 2 points of hardness from any object you try to break.

you'd have to be careful about introducing outside feats into conan. dont know if you'd need knockdown as theres already improved trip.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Knockdown as per Sword and Fist requires Improved Trip as a Prereq. The effect is that you get a free trip attempt whenever you deal a target a certain amount of damage. Well, maybe it would be overpowered as well.

Currently writing up a sample character to see how well it works out with the feat slots.
For starters, I'm giving the Barb "Fleet Footed" and "Eyes of the Cat". (Rather than the typical PA/Cleave)

 

[slaughterj]

BTW is there a Feat Tree for printout somewhere, that I could give my players? They are all new to the system and some visualization would surely do a lot for their understanding the feat chain concept.

Just look at the Feats chart and you see a few feats that require several prereqs - those are the feat trees basically.

In general, there are several generic good feats to consider - Improved Initiative, Dodge and/or Parry, Toughness, Eyes of the Cat, and Combat Expertise (as there is little healing in Conan, this is very good since you can avoid even getting hit).

Power Attack and Cleave is a good short chain to get.

Reflexive Parry is valuable to characters who do not get Uncanny Dodge, so doing the feat chain to get this is good, but requires a fairly high level to get. Soldiers almost always should work toward getting this.

Having any one of the "Improved" feats are good for a character, e.g., Improved Disarm or Improved Sunder, to flesh them out with a further combat option, and they often have a prereq as well, so there's some more chains to consider.

 

[Ichabod]

Power Attack and Cleave are insanely strong as one shotting enemies is easy in Conan.

Because of that ease, striking first is good, so Improved Initiative and, maybe, Lightning Reflexes have a point.

Barbarian is going to get Uncanny Dodge, so Reflexive Parry is unnecessary. While there's no balance between the two as the former is so much better, the latter is still incredibly useful.

I have a very not scholarly character whom I've considered taking Knowledgeable for because there's just a bunch of Knowledge skills one can end up with; in his case, he has Local, Religion, Nature, Geography, Warfare. +10 for one feat is way better than the +2/+2 feats.

I'd avoid ranged attack feats unless you want to build a highly focussed archer.

Improved Feint (therefore, Combat Expertise) is all the rage if you have Sneak Attack, but that doesn't seem like something you need to worry about unless you multiclass.

Even in our campaign, where we hardly ever lose our main weapons, I just don't see the advantage to sinking slots into single weapon expertise. Can kill everything just fine with PA and Cleave.

The concept of Iron Will is good as running away in a fight removes all combat ability. But, with Fearless and a Code of Honor (way better than Iron Will with no cost), have that area covered to some degree.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Hmmm, so many nice feats, so few slots.. ^_^
Thanks for the tips so far, you're being a great help. =)

A little change of the situation: two of my three players have announced they want to play Thieves. The third has not made a decision and I have no idea what he is going to choose (he had voted for Shadowrun when we had to decide on a game). So it looks like my "sample char" will have to tag along as semi-NPC to serve as Brawn for the group. So I have to build him properly and make him quite a tank.

Stats are going to be (Cimmerian, 41 point buy):
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 13, Wis 14, Int 12, Cha 12
(with stat boosts going to go into Dex, Str and Con)

I plan on making him strictly Barbarian, not multiclassing at all, to get the high-level benefits up to Triple Threat Range With Anything You Can Pick Up(R).

For 1st level I'm sticking to Eyes of the Cat, then he won't be the only blind mole in a group of nocturnals. In D&D I often picked Blind Fight, but there don't seem to be so many invisible attackers or blinding effect in Conan. (Not that I couldn't introduce them... har har)
I also like Fleet Footed because that should allow him to outmanoeuvre most enemies (I've always been a fan of mobile combat styles).

Also looks like there's no way past Power Attack, because it's a prereq for both Cleave and Improved Sunder. I'm not sure what level to take it at, though, maybe 5th (2nd Favoured Class feat).

I'm not sure if Improved Ini is going to be that useful, because Barb has high Ref Save and thus good Ini anyway. Well I'll make that dependent on slot availability.

Also I'm tempted to try out the Two Weapon Combat rules, so ITWC would be in order at or after level 6. The rules look like a TWFer could tear lightly-armoured foes to shreds, however it seems not to be an ideal combination with the Cleave chain. Opinions on that?

Concerning Iron Will, I'll put that decision off to 12th or 15th level, by that time I should know whether the Will Save + Fearless + Code of Honour suffices to withstand Will attacks. (Will Save at 12th level should be +10 or so, even more against Fear or Corruption)

Those are my thoughts so far.

 

[Krushnak]

hyboria's fiercest had an optional rule for barbarians who start as pit fighters that get power attack instead of track at first level.

i would get impTWF and cleave just so your awesome no matter what weapons are available, really builds on the barbarians versatility. also definately get some of the improved feats, improved unarmed and grapple being my first recommendations.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Nice idea with the pit fighter rule, but this is going to be largely a wilderness campaign, and so far my tagalong Barb is the only character able to find his way in the wilds. So track will have to stay, also for foraging/hunting purposes.

The suggestions sound good, except I don't really know what Grappling is much good for (never really used it in the past).

Anyway I am pretty sure that guy will start kicking very serious ass especially at higher levels (14+). :twisted:
At that level, he'll have Str 24 (+7), which should allow him to defeat most armour even when wielding two weapons, be more likely to score a critical, have a good chance of inflicting massive damage, and on success make extra attacks with (Great) Cleave. Yup, sounds neato. ^^

 

[Ichabod]

So it looks like my "sample char" will have to tag along as semi-NPC to serve as Brawn for the group. So I have to build him properly and make him quite a tank.

"semi-NPC"?

Stats are going to be (Cimmerian, 41 point buy):
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 13, Wis 14, Int 12, Cha 12
(with stat boosts going to go into Dex, Str and Con)

While there are some attribute prerequisites for feats that affect the decision, I highly recommend a high INT out of the gate. INT's rewards are highest at first level and payoff every level thereafter but can be "lost" unlike other attributes. Assuming the character survives, the other attributes' benefits end up being the same whether they were achieved early or late.

While I can see the desire for a good DEX both for initiative and for dodging due to the barbarian's better dodge than parry, I really don't see any need for CON or WIS to be better than INT. Boost those if you want later.

Actually, I wouldn't have a better DEX than INT either. The thieves will have tons of skill ranks, but there's no particular reason you should skimp on them, whether because you might want to try to keep pace on certain skills you will all use, such as Move Silently or Hide, or be a source of skill in an area they ignore (e.g. Survival or Swim).

I like CHA in this game, but I'm not entirely sure why you didn't junk it for points elsewhere given your concept.

 

[Clovenhoof]

semi-NPC: I'll have him tag along, and also give him a personality and his own agenda, but of course let the others do the "puzzles", or it would be like playing chess against myself.
Besides, we may be able to take turns at GMing later on, so I might be able to play him as regular PC. (Which also makes it important to do this char by the book without bending any rules)

I know what you're getting at with the INT score, but I don't really see a way around it.
Well, let's see, why did I distribute the points that way:

STR - should go without saying. Should rise to 24 (+7). I know it'snot ideal to have an odd modifier but can't really help it.
DEX - 16 starting score for 22 (+6) final score, for Dodge value of 31 by the end. Dodge value will overtake Parry (with targe) value somewhere between levels 7 and 11, depending on which stat I boost first.
CON - boost once for a final score of 18
WIS - 14 for good perception and, above all, better Will save
INT - 12, keep in mind that's a natural 14 minus the racial modifier, and that I decided to use Point Buy. To raise Int to an effective 14, I'd have to shave off 4 points from other abilities (and thus reducing a bunch of skill modifiers as well), which I am loth to do. As you were saying, with two thieves in the party there should be enough skill in the group. I'm going to focus on wilderness, stealth and perception skills; won't be able to keep them all maxed out, but that's life.
CHA - 12, partly because I like it that way and want to encourage other players not to neglect their CHA score either. Partly because the image I have in mind for this character wouldn't mix well with a dull 10 or an unpleasant 8. ^^

 

[bjorntfh]

Two feats to NEVER ignore are Eyes of the Cat (you only get one, maybe two chanes to get it, 1st level and 2nd level thief. If you're not a thief, get it, it's one of those feats you underestimate until you get anywhere dark.)

The other is improved unarmed attack. You can parry without penalty always (otherwise you get -4 with no weapon or -2 with an improvised one) and you always threaten around you, even if wielding a bow. The third benefit (although often overlooked) is for the free attack if you're THFing. If you use a two handed weapon you get a free attack every full attack because unarmed strikes are light weapons (no penalty when TWFing) and don't require a hand ("kick him in the junk" as our party puts it.) A VERY useful feat considering the benefits it gives. Mind you without Brawl you're only doing 1d3+str, but hey, anything's worth it in Conan (note to all: Conan: where fair play is a drawback.)

 

[Clovenhoof]

Yup, had Eyes of the Cat right on my list. I always try to get some kind of night vision. I'm glad there is that feat.

You can parry without penalty always (otherwise you get -4 with no weapon or -2 with an improvised one) and you always threaten around you, even if wielding a bow. The third benefit (although often overlooked) is for the free attack if you're THFing.

Is THAT so? Okay the Parry I understand, and the bow thing also makes kind of sense, but you really get a free extra attack when THFing? I never heard or read that.
Besides, thanks for bringing to my attention what the Brawl feat is good for. I thought it rather redundant, because I just compared it to the D&D Monk's unarmed attack (which starts out at d6 damage).

 

[bjorntfh]

The whole use of TWF plus Unarmed was hashed out on the D&D boards ages ago, but the simple answer (and the one that was finally made the official ruling) was that and "unarmed" strike can be a punch, kick, headbutt, or elbow, or whatever. Thus you could use two weapon fighting to use two unarmed or a single unarmed and any other weapon. If you have a two handed weapon you get only 1/2 strength bonus on the unarmed strike in the "off hand" (leg, face, whatever.)

The important thing to note is that you cannot use Two Weapons and Unarmed for a free third attack, but you can mix and match, so if you had an arming sword, short sword and metal boots (gauntlets for unarmed kicking) you could use the arming sword as your primary weapon, then get two weapon fighting with EITHER the short sword OR the kick, but not both. It make it a benefit for two handed style slightly, but the bonus damage is negligable.

Note that in Conan it's more of a style thing to do it that way, but heck, if the guy leaves himself open he deserves a good kick in the junk!

 

[Clovenhoof]

I like the kick thing, it's actually something found even in historical fencing manuals.
So it should also be possible when using a shield, right? Like, if you have Brawl (d6) and are using a targe (d4) you'd rather use the kick than the targe to maybe your "off hand" attack.

That's pretty cool. ^^

 

[bjorntfh]

Yup, you can use a shield as well with it. You just need to have two legs/ a leg and a hand/ a leg and a head/whatever combonation you want to do it. Unarmed as off hand attack, and something else as your primary attack (although it can also be unarmed as well.)

 

[Valgrim Bragisson]

If you want to boost your TWF, I would suggest Two Weapon Strike and Off-Hand Weapon Expert, from Hyboria's Fiercest and Hyboria's Finest.
TWS lets you combine your primery and off-hand weapon damage, treating a hit by both as a single hit, for penatrating DR and causing Massive Damage. Usable once per Round.

OHWE lets you add your FULL Str. bonus to damage with an off-hand weapon. With both, a pair of short swords is equal to a greatsword, at least on your first attack. Also compensates nicely for the lack of PA with light weapons.

MP

 

[Lord Jolly the Scribe]

Hey Cloven, what be rules to two-weapon attack and then kick? Could you use Multiattack feat for that?

Just a curiousity question! 8)

 

[Lord Jolly the Scribe]

Ooooh Valgrim, I like those feats. I need to read that book. I have it, but I thought it would just be a bunch of extra magic, diplomacy, and Charisma rules, which doesn't fit into my gaming group of hack and take stuff gamers. This may appease their blood-thirst. :twisted: