US ACTA Tourney

[Davesaint]

I do not think the Gaim are THAT over the top. Yes, they are unbalanced, but I feel they can become balanced with ONE correction.

Change their emines to Slow Loading.

This will REALLY hamper their firepower. One of the biggest disadvantages of the Gaim is that they have so many fighters, but their primary weapons kill everything within 3" including their own stuff. If the Gaim cannot fire their emines agian until round 3, most enemy fleets will have had a chance to get closer to engage. This will make their emines less effective.

And the best thing about this change is that you will start to see ships that use other weapons. Those Heavy Gatling Lasers are pretty cool.

I don't think the Gaim breaching pods are unbalanced. I like the fact that there is a race out there that excells in boarding actions. Otherwise you would not see that tactic played at all.

There were two fleets at the tourney that could have given Enalut's Gaim fleet a run for their money, even as is. One player would have beaten him easily with his Drakh, IMO. GEG make short work of 2 die emines. And I think the Narn player would have done well. That G'Vrahn is tough. Emines and Ion Torps would have done very well indeed against the Gaim.

I feel that there were two decisions by the tournament organizers that almost INVITED someone to play that lame Gaim fleet. First, the allowance of paper or cardboard chits. I hear that it is Mongoose policy to allow such. But it doesn't do ANYONE any good. Especially not the store that hosted the tournament. Give the retailer some love! I am strongly against this allowance, and wish that Mongoose re-think this policy.

The second was the change in the rules from the rulebook regarding asteroids. I thought it was very cool that the mission had a planet and 4 asteroid fields. But why (oh why!) did the tournament organizers make these fields transparent (3+ stealth)? Having something to hide behind is cool. Makes for a more tactical gaming experience, IMO. In the tournament emines could shoot through them with impunity. No drawback whatsoever.

If these two rules were not in effect, such a Gaim fleet would not have been nearly as viable. Everyone involved would have had more fun, and the tournament would have been successful.

-Carlos

The asteroid field was transparent? Was this a house rule? In the current edition of the rules you can fire into, out of, but not through an asteroid field. Of course with range 40 Photon Bombs, and small asteroid fields this doesn't really matter as they can often hit things out of line of sight due to the nature of the template.


As far as allowing people to use counters, so what? If they are using a SFOS counter set, then they did purchase the counters. A photocopied counter, I might object to, but then again, Mongoose has not produced counters for the Gaim yet. Before you judge though, you might have wanted to check the availabity of the Gaim miniatures. Many retailers have had issues in the last 6 months or so getting figs. Mongoose has made strides in fixing this, but if the player couldn't get the models, I would not hold it against him.


Dave

 

[Da Boss]

This came up in the last big tournament - people are missing the statement in the rules that ALL Terrain features block line of sight. They check the individual entries and note it does not state specifically that it is blocked by say, asteroid fields. It dos make a big difference

 

[Enalut]

With regards to the Terrain: the rule as set for the tournamet was the firing trhough a Asteroid feild gave the target a stealth 3+ score. Yes it is different from the rules, but it was clearly stated int eh tornament pack.

With regards to the counters I used:

They were print outs of the Gaim counters in the Player resurces section. I used those because I have inquired several times about the status of 2nd Ed. Counderts and been told they are not being made. I initially got into ACTA because I likd the fact that you could use the counders to try out various fleets and strategies before purchaisng actual models.

Personally,. I have a 6 points of battle level Minbari painted and am working on about 10 battle points worht of Narn. I do not own any Gaim and do not intend to because I do not care for how the fleet plays. As I said, it was cheese.

However, I liked the fact that I could try something new and different. And after tryign that, I do not hink that I would purchase them as a standard fleet.



With regards to eurotia:

I will acknowledge that I wished to win the tornament, and that I played to win. To be perfectly honest, I did not know what prizes would be offered before I entered.

But I disagree with the assertion that one should not trya and miximize the strenghts of ones fleet while minimizing its weaknesses. That is my problem with the Gaim: it is too easy to min/max the fleet. As I said, I brought hee fleet I did to prove a point: That in the hands of a competent player, the Gaim fleet is unballenced and should be redone or at least tweaked (as was the original Maximus).

I do not see how playing to win and playing to prove a point are diametrically opposed. The prize that was won will be invested into filling out the 2 fleets of ships that I usually play.

As I have said, I respect other people's opinion, and welcome a discussion on this point. I also do not beleive that Mongoose will adress this issue unless there is more than academic discussion on these forums.

 

[lastbesthope]

But no. His fleet was lame paper.

You can't hold the fact that someone plays with counters against them, well not the official counters anyway (which in the case of the Gaim they aren't).

Not everyone has the money, time or gumption to paint a fleet up, and happily plays with counters. My ISA fleet choices are often hampered by my lack of painted ships.

LBH

 

[Harry Lonsdale]

First, the allowance of paper or cardboard chits. I hear that it is Mongoose policy to allow such. But it doesn't do ANYONE any good.

I and several people in my gaming group wouldn't be playing ACTA at all if this counters weren't allowed. I've spent more than enough on miniatures through the years, and I don't want to get into another game where I have to have them. Yes, I plan on buying a fleet when I can decide which I prefer, but even then I like having the option of using counters if I want to try something different.

 

[Chernobyl]

agreed. I traveled to San Diego with a cardboard fleet (Crusade Era) even though I have some of the ships as models. (Omega, Chronos)
Since I didn't have my own transportation (took the train) I didn't want to lug around another case and I wasn't certain how well they'd survive the trip. I'm glad I didn't considering the rain. I don't think anyone there took issue with the fact I was using counters. I wasn't the only one using them either. Also, because of the various issuse people have with basing fighters (they are so varied in base size, number, etc) for tourneys I stick to counters for fighters almost exclusively.

My EA fleet isn't completely painted and isn't nearly as wide ranging as I would like (need some myrmidons :lol: ). I wish I had more time but much of it is spent keeping up with my website and other work.

Chern

 

[eurotia]

Definitely a difference in opinion here.

You must realize that I come from a Retailer's standpoint. I would assume that a manufacturer (Mongoose) would have a similar view. Its all about how the game looks and feels. Metal (or plastic) miniatures are just better than paper or cardboard. Painted miniatures are better still. I don't think anyone would disagree with me here.

As a retailer, when I hold events at my store, I encourage people to paint and get into the hobby side of things. (I have derived thousands of hours of enjoyment painting miniatures and would recommend it to just about anyone. If you haven't tried it, you are missing out.) I have hosted many tournaments where I REQUIRED painted figures. This requirment stems from the real reason why I hold tournaments. Its only partially for the players. I would say the primary reason to hold a tournament is to show off the game and said miniatures to prospective new players. If they see a cool game being played in my store, they are more likely to pick it up than just seeing it on the shelf. And, frankly, I sell more paint as well. I gotta tell you, cardboard or paper chits are just abhorrent to me. And I had never seen that at any tournament I have gone to.

But it seems many of the folks on this forum play games a little bit differently.

Another thing I have issue with is the way the tournament was scored. It was all about destruction. Some other companies reward players for good sportsmanship and force construction. I think these are noble goals. This weekend, in each game you could get up to 20 points from battle and up to 2 extra points for good behaviour. Less than 10% of your score came from whether you thought it was a "good game" or not. Over 90% comes from battles. Not really an incentive in any way to take a balanced fleet. I think Mongoose could learn a thing or two from some companies that do tournaments right.

This is no slam on Rob Glass, who ran a good tournament, considering. I just think he had one hand tied behind his back by Mongoose.

I understand the concept of trying out a fleet on paper. I disagree that a tournament is the place to do it.

I understand that some people are poor and don't have an extra $100 lying around to spend on a game. Truly my heart goes out to you people. Subsistence living is not cool.

I understand the hassle of traveling with figures. As you may have heard, we drove 3 hours to get to this weekend's tourney. I purchased a new Sabol figure case specifically for this tournament.

But none of these drawbacks stopped us! We struggled through. We fought the hard fight. And the Kettering folks just didn't measure up.

(We had heard that there would be several locals at the tournament, and a HUGE part of my dissatisfaction with the day was that only one local player showed up. Six of the seven players were from my own group. Might have just held the tourney in Lafayette.)

As for Enalut giving up on the Gaim, its too bad you didn't realize this just a week earlier. Perhaps the trip to Ohio wouldn't have been wasted had you taken 8 paper Sho'Kovs.

-Carlos

 

[eurotia]

Before you judge though, you might have wanted to check the availabity of the Gaim miniatures. Many retailers have had issues in the last 6 months or so getting figs. Mongoose has made strides in fixing this, but if the player couldn't get the models, I would not hold it against him.

Now a word about the Krystal Keep in Kettering, OH.

This is about the coolest store I have ever been to. Huge, with lots and lots of space devoted to retail and an almost equal space devoted to gaming. Truly, they do games right!

This is Enalut's store. I saw a $100 Gaim Fleet Box on the shelf. It had a little dust on it, so I think Enalut had plenty of time to pick it up. And, if Enalut needed a few more Shuukas, seems the Keep could have gotten them pretty easily, as the Mongoose warehouse is about 5 minutes away. So, I do hold that against him.

(After the tourney, we got a chance to visit the Mongoose warehouse. Pretty cool seeing where the minis are made.)

Of course, Enalut has already stated that it was not his goal to buy this fleet. He was just there to win. And, despite his denial, I stand by my theory that his stated goal of point proving was and is a smoke screen.

-Carlos

 

[Davesaint]

Before you judge though, you might have wanted to check the availabity of the Gaim miniatures. Many retailers have had issues in the last 6 months or so getting figs. Mongoose has made strides in fixing this, but if the player couldn't get the models, I would not hold it against him.

Now a word about the Krystal Keep in Kettering, OH.

This is about the coolest store I have ever been to. Huge, with lots and lots of space devoted to retail and an almost equal space devoted to gaming. Truly, they do games right!

This is Enalut's store. I saw a $100 Gaim Fleet Box on the shelf. It had a little dust on it, so I think Enalut had plenty of time to pick it up. And, if Enalut needed a few more Shuukas, seems the Keep could have gotten them pretty easily, as the Mongoose warehouse is about 5 minutes away. So, I do hold that against him.

(After the tourney, we got a chance to visit the Mongoose warehouse. Pretty cool seeing where the minis are made.)

Of course, Enalut has already stated that it was not his goal to buy this fleet. He was just there to win. And, despite his denial, I stand by my theory that his stated goal of point proving was and is a smoke screen.

-Carlos

Eurotia,

Here's my other question for you, how would you feel if you shelled out a couple of hundred dollars in miniatures and no one would let you play with them because they feel the race is broken? I know that I would be pretty pissed off. This is one of the reasons I won't buy the Gaim. My group has pretty much decided that we are going to ban them from play. Thus I won't buy them. Would it be any better if Enalut showed up at the tournament with a couple of hundred dollars in figs and the organizer said, no you can't play the Gaim.

I see two areas that cause your anger.

1 - you are a retailer, and you don't want people playing with things that aren't purchased. So I guess if I showed up at your store with a MGP SFOS Counter pack you would not let me play.

2 - You are upset because the player chose a race that he knew was broken with the idea that he would win the tournament and prove to Mongoose that the race was broken.

Well, it seems from the history of Mongoose, that things get fixed when the dominate tournaments.

As far as "sportsmanship points" at tournaments, I don't like them. They are subjective and easily tainted. Go on the flames of war board and read about the questions regarding the sportsmanship scoring from last years US National Championships. I think the thread was 15 + pages. There is too much room for shenanigans if sportsmanship points are too high of a percentage of your score.


Dave

 

[Burger]

You must realize that I come from a Retailer's standpoint. I would assume that a manufacturer (Mongoose) would have a similar view.

Not at all. Mongoose are very relaxed with their mini allowances. In Mongoose tournaments they allow players to use minis, counters, FA scale figures, and even stand-in minis where the proper one is unavailable (providing it is clear what each mini represents).

Agree with Davesaint about sportsmanship. They only work if everyone is a good sportsman. Good sportsmen tend to give high sportsmanship points even to bad players. Bad sportsmen will give low sportsmanship points to good players, justifying it by "I didn't enjoy the game because I lost" or some similar junk.

The sportsmanship scheme Hash came up with works best. Both players give a score of 1-5, and both players get the average of the 2 scores. So if one player gives 1 and the other 5, both players get 3. A bad player will not screw himself over by giving 1 to a good player... but a good sportsman won't mind losing out a little for being honest.

 

[EDFDarkAngel1]

Wow, people. Seriously. What the hell.

Why are we belittling someone because they lack the ability or choose not to have painted miniatures? The venue chose to allow them, and they have their reasons for it. The player took advantage of it and won with it.

I have beliefs that, if he had not one, no one would be complaining. Yes, there is a significant amount of pride in painting your own miniatures. But that's not the point of the game, playing is.

I gave my Nemesis Destroyers to a friend starting Psi Corps because my EA Crusade era 1st Ed box had two of them. At 2e, they were utterly useless to me. I also gave him two Civilian Transports for fighter carriers, and my Space Liner for his Mothership. Everything else he either uses his 2 FA points to borrow from my ships, or he proxies.

I gave my entire ISA collection to my other friend trying to start up. He's pretty much got a complete fleet, short Blue Stars, the Liandra, and Nolo'Tars. He's repainted one of the Victory Destroyers, but the rest still has my stock Bastion Gray scheme.

The point is, that, if I had not given them my ships, they would be left to additional proxies or tokens. It's acceptable, especially since we can't get our hands on other ships. What is everyone's deal? I started a thread about Strut Your Stuff... most of those people use their old Fleet Action miniatures. That's just a step up from tokens right there, but it counts. They put their time and energy into them, and they are proud of it.

Even a veteran forumite, lastbesthope, has 0 painted miniatures. Is he any less of a player? Absolutely not.

I hope that there is another American tournament, and soon. Maybe in Arizona or California.

Dark Angel

 

[Admiral Phlop]

I believe that counters have been an acceptable form of playing the game, even in tournaments. This has been one MGP's selling points in that some one doesn't have to go out and spend more than 100 dollars for a fleet. They can play the game and compete in tournaments. That is what I like about this game and the company as unlike some other game companies that are so anal about their use of exact figures to play in their tournaments. I wish I could have made it as I am one of the locals that could not make it. I was going to bring my Drakh as I wanted to see how they would play against the Gaim. I figured somebody would bring them. I feel they need some adjustments and this is one way that MGP will hear about them being unbalanced. Hell, the tournament organizer works for the company. Counters are part of the game. Get over it.

 

[eurotia]

Counters are part of the game. Get over it.

Yes. I get it. I feel I have been very up-front about why I don't think they should be allowed in tournaments. Mongoose it seems, and many people on this forum, have different thoughts on the matter.

People are getting a little testy. Except for Enalut. He has been a gentleman (ever since the tournament) regarding my harsh talk about his fleet selection. I am impressed that he has not lashed back at me.

-Carlos

 

[eurotia]

Here's my other question for you, how would you feel if you shelled out a couple of hundred dollars in miniatures and no one would let you play with them because they feel the race is broken? I know that I would be pretty pissed off. This is one of the reasons I won't buy the Gaim.

I believe my local group would have to come up with house rules. I sure wouldn't panic! I would gladly help with toning down my own fleet if I agreed that it was broken. I assume there will be official errata soon. Mongoose would never ban a whole race at tournaments. So, a guy is not gonna get stuck with an unplayable race. That's sillytalk.

-Carlos

 

[armbarred]

Here's something everyone needs to think about:

This forum is about friendly discussion. I think a few people are getting way to heated over something that honestly they weren't even around to see.

The paper counters did detract from the fun of the game. They led to confusion about what was representing what and they were used to exploit a flaw in the rules.

That fleet could have been fielded without breaking the bank.

Paper counters are fine for pick up games, and are ideal for games where you are trying to decide if you want to start a new fleet. But I do honestly believe they are unfair and unacceptable for tournaments. Transport to tournaments is not that difficult. I take mini's for at least three different games to every convention I go to every year. Do they take up a bit more space? Yes. Is it more fun for me to use models painted and truly representative of my army/fleet/race etc... Absolutely. Do my opponents get more enjoyment out of facing them? Everyone says so.

I've ran the last three Origin and the last two GenCon Indy tournaments for Call to Arms. I have never had someone bring counters. I've never even had someone ask.

And, counters were part of the game in first edition as they came in the box. There are no more included complete fleets in the books.

 

[EDFDarkAngel1]

I would much rather use proxies or counters than the real civilian ships. They are horrid models. I have never given up on anything before that point.

Dark Angel

 

[Harry Lonsdale]

The paper counters...were used to exploit a flaw in the rules.

I'm curious about this. Would you elaborate?

But I do honestly believe they are unfair and unacceptable for tournaments.

I can understand not liking them, but how are they unfair?

 

[Davesaint]

Here's something everyone needs to think about:

This forum is about friendly discussion. I think a few people are getting way to heated over something that honestly they weren't even around to see.

The paper counters did detract from the fun of the game. They led to confusion about what was representing what and they were used to exploit a flaw in the rules.

That fleet could have been fielded without breaking the bank.

Paper counters are fine for pick up games, and are ideal for games where you are trying to decide if you want to start a new fleet. But I do honestly believe they are unfair and unacceptable for tournaments. Transport to tournaments is not that difficult. I take mini's for at least three different games to every convention I go to every year. Do they take up a bit more space? Yes. Is it more fun for me to use models painted and truly representative of my army/fleet/race etc... Absolutely. Do my opponents get more enjoyment out of facing them? Everyone says so.

I've ran the last three Origin and the last two GenCon Indy tournaments for Call to Arms. I have never had someone bring counters. I've never even had someone ask.

And, counters were part of the game in first edition as they came in the box. There are no more included complete fleets in the books.

I really don't understand why they counters would be considered unfair, especially if they are mongoose product counters. Most of the counters btw are larger in surface area than the bases of the models they represent. Thus from a tactical sense, they are unfair to the person who is using them.

I prefer to use mini's, but I am not going to look down my nose at someone who is using counters.


BTW, would you disallow someone who is using the Fleet Action scale minis from participating in your tournaments? They are mini's after all.



Dave

 

[Enalut]

Regarding armbarred's refrence to a rules exploit (correct me if I am wrong) I beleive he is refering to our game when he did not notice the difference in appearence between the fighter and breaching pod counters.

Although I am somewhat symapthetic, there was a clear difference inteh appearence of the counters that was easily visble. No one else I played agaisnt had any difficulty with distinguishing the different types of Aux Craft.

Regarding the use of counters, as I said I got into ACTA because of the relatively low introductory costs. Initally I refused to use models because of both the expens and the fact that I have generaly found (good quality) counters more precise than models. Over the last year I have colected 2 war point fleets (Minbari and Narn) worth of models (with the purcases made with the tournament prize).

However, I think it is preposteous to expect everyone to place the same value on the artistic angle of the game. To me, ACTA is first and fore most a game, not a means of demostrating my (lack of) artistic talent. Unlike many, I have generally found the modeling and painting of peics to be quite a hasel that detracts from the experice of playing the GAME. I do nowever admit that using models does add t the appearence of a game.

Moreover, I do not like to invset in peics where it is quite likely (and hopefully) that the peices gameplaying value will change.

I think MGP has developed an excellent buisnes model: encuragingand permitting the use of countrs asamens of bringing peple into the game and then counting on thier built up intreat to sell models. Without this, I think that man only casual gamers (like I was when I purchased the original box set) would never have gotten interestedin the game.

Whether counter should be used in a tournment I do beleive is a diffent question, and while I beleive they should be permitted--especailly given the fact that there is no officail tournament format; I think it is a mettr properly left to the tournament organizer.

I regret that I saped the entertinanet of the day from people but do beleive that an officially licenced tournament is the proper and best palce to demonstrate a flaw in the game. And I still challenge someone to explain to me why playing to win and playing to prove a point are mutually exclusive goals, or why the later is only a fig leaf to cover the former.

Finally, regaridng the tone of these discussions, since the tournamnet I hve t felt that any of these have decended into unnecessary psonal attacks. I understand that I placed my actions in the forum and I generally looked forward to and have enjoyed following this discusion.

 

[B_Steele]

Okay...time for me to add in here.

You all know me, many of you have played at tournaments with me or may have seen when I've brought a crazy Raider fleet to your store to "compete" or whatever. Some of you are in my local gaming crew and have helped me work the bugs out of whatever I was designing - if you knew it or not. Whatever the case, I am a very big supporter of ACTA from a gamer's stance as well as a corporate one. Hell, Matthew has called me a Mongoose Cheerleader on more than one occasion.

Anyway, I was at this tournament. The guys from Indiana drove over with me (as they are all from my local crew). And I did have the opportunity/misfortune of playing against Enalut's fleet. You will note that I did not say the misfortune of playing against Enalut.

Here are my opinions on the tournament.

1. Krystal Keep is the best damn game store I've ever seen. Hands down.

2. Rob was just as frustrated at the local guys not showing up as those of us who drove 3 hours to play, but it was not his fault and he did well with the hand he was dealt.

3. The Gaim fleet in question was indeed a cheese-induced nightmare, both in rules and playability, but it was made even more so by the imposed tournament pack. The counters were all over his side of the table in little piles that honestly only he could understand (although he would explain what is what when asked), they were also nigh-unreadable unless you paused, walked around the table, and looked from about 12 inches away. Again, this problem would not likely occur with models (even unpainted ones). The lack of ship limitations, composition scoring, model reliance, pre-posted scenario type, and adjustments to asteroid field rules made it too easy to make a one-trick pony and turn it into the prizewinner.

4. I personally abhor paper counters in tournaments, although I do not count someone off for their painting skill. It does not take skill to glue them together (okay, a little bit), and they look 1000% better and more concise on the board than paper chits. Not to mention, they are infinitely more recogniseable from four feet away than black-and-white photocopies. (I'm also against the use of Fleet Action minis, but that is solely from a corporate standpoint...playing a game without supporting the miniature line sales is bad for our business; the money is in the metal I'm afraid).

5. As someone who played against the fleet, I felt it was not much fun to play against due to the formulaic and monotonous "tactic" being used. Although I would not have scored Enalut low on sportsmanship because of his game play (I enjoyed the challenge to a certain degree), I would have scored the fleet's composition nearly as low as possible if that was being judged (which is wasn't, btw). All in all, I just wanted the match to end; but that was not necessarily Enalut's fault as a player - it was solely his fleet selection's.

I agree with Eurotia that I feel that a tournament should be just as much fun as pick-up games, which is why I am a big supporter of Composition scoring BEFORE a tournament begins, I agree that sometimes we at Mongoose can have our opinions tailored by our local players when it comes to such things. I would not have thought the Gaim were that bad - as I have a sizeable Gaim fleet as part of my League - and would NEVER dream of building something so overpowered and cheesy because I would not want another player to have no fun playing me. Thus, I never saw it coming...and I think my local players might have felt the same way. Blindsided by it, as it were.

Anyway, I think the real problem in this situation is only partially the fleet list (as I have fielded "fair" Gaim fleets in the past and no one has faulted me for it). I think with a more restrictive Tournament Pack that penalises fleets for lack of variety and an inability to adapt to different scenarios is the real solution...not the banishment of the Gaim.

In fact, I think that is going to be my new free time taker-upper, the design of a possible new tournament format. I know what I liked about the tournament, but I also know what I must change to try and make things even more fair across the board.

In closing, all in all I had a great road trip to Kettering, OH to play and see Rob. I enjoyed meeting Enalaut, but perhaps not his fleet selection. But I do not hold it against him. I do hope that he will look to his models for a fleet instead of his printer for next time, but that is my own personal opinion.

Anyway, I hope that I haven't ruffled too many feathers, as that I did have a good day. I just know that I would do things dramatically differently, and Rob and I have talked about this since. If anything, Enalut did what he set out to do; I saw the faultiness in that tournament fleet's rules, and am looking to adjust things to make things "fairer".

Cheers all, and happy holidays,
Bry