US ACTA Tourney

[Admiral Phlop]

Glad to hear a report from the tournament. I am one of the locals that could not make it. Family matters take precedence. I wondered if somebody would bring the Gaim. We have banned them from the campaign that we are running. We have decided before running the campaign and shortly after 2E came out the Gaim were to over the top. One of the fellows in our group compared it to another manufacturer that when they bring out a new race or army make it over the top until everybody complains about it and then makes changes to bring it back in line. This does sell figures at first. Oh well, maybe more on the tournament from some of the others that attended. Thanks for the report.

 

[Bubba Ho-Tep]

Enalut, I wouldn't worry about the ones who complained, there are some in every crowd. I really wish I could have come up and played, but family commitments kept me grounded in space dock.

Glad you had a good timr, got any pics?

 

[armbarred]

First off, over-all the tournament made for a fun weekend for me. We came from a few hours away had a couple of games and got to hang out with Rob in a non-convention environment. I'll do it again I'm sure.

That being said, I had my first game of the day against Enault. The fleet was not "fun" to play. Part of that was due to the complete use of counters for a very large fleet. It slowed game play down, and there was confusion in a couple of instances in our game alone that would have been eliminated if models had been used. I know models are not required, but my preference is to play against models for several reasons.

Another part of it was that Enalut admitted from the start that the fleet was unbalanced. I am the most competitive person in my play group, I do always look for a way to win. But, I do not exploit rules and I do everything in my power to not play "cheese". In a tournament my goal is to win and have fun. I do believe there should be a limit to what should be taken in any army or fleet list. It's one of the reasons I am so found of not just a sportsman award, but also a composition score being a big factor in tournament standings.

As an MI when I run a tournament, composition is judged and plays as much a part in any players placing as any single battle.

The fleet I had with me that day was built to counter the fighter swarm and missile attack abilities of the Gaim. I believe it did that more than adequately. I forgot to factor in the emines in my strategy.

Would I play Enalut again? Yes
Will I play the Gaim again? Yes
Will I play that same fleet again willingly? Probably not.

As for there being one in every group? You are absolutely correct. Of the six of us that drove three hours to play: one runs a chain of game stores, one writes for a gaming company, I am an MI and spend my vacations every year working the cons. We are all life-long gamers and friends. Perhaps a couple of people took it a bit personal when they noticed the lack of enjoyment being had. But honestly, I think most people would have seen the same thing and reacted pretty much the same way.

But as I said, this is my two cents worth, I don't actually speak for the group. Enalut, please don't think this was a personal attack. You seemed like a great guy and I hope we can throw dice again.

 

[Chernobyl]

<rant>

I'm not a fan of broken fleets.

I think it's been recognized before now that the Gaim are pretty silly-over-the-top, and Enalut admitted and much with his post and to the players who played him at the event in question. Does that make it OK to bring the fleet to an event?

Well, by the letter of the rules, and aparently by the tournament organizer, they're legal. Its an offical tournament. They're an official fleet. They can be brought.

But Enalut, let me say, if I had to drive three hours to a tournament and play against that, I'd be a little put out. (let alone the 11 hour train ride to the San diego tournament earlier this year - I don't mind traveling to play!) Granted, its a competition, you're playing to win. But you admit the fleet is broken. It should be fixed. A tournament, (and let me emphasize) in my personal opinion, where people are coming from far away to play and have a good time, is not the forum for someone to play a fleet to in order to prove a point.

It not fun to play against someone where the outcome of the game is practically a foregone conclusion. Its not fun to play in a tournament when the winner won, not because of his tactics, or a luck die roll, but simply because of his fleet choice.

Its OK for scenarios; the challenge is in trying to see how long you can hang on or how many of them you can Take with you! Tournaments are not that type of game. The fleets are intended to be equal in strength. They're intended to be a challenge.

If I'd been at that tournament, I don't think I would have had a good time. If I'd had to drive three hours each way and give up a day to play in an event that another person saw as a chance to prove a point to mongoose, I'd be a little ticked. I'm not saying you have be a pushover, or intentionally play a weak fleet. I'm certainly not suggesting you play, Raiders, for instance. :lol:

Now, I wasn't there. I didn't play in any of the games and I don't know any of the players firsthand. Enalut may have been a very charming guy, indeed all evidence posted here says he was a decent chap to play against. I'm just basing this post off of what i've read here so far.

I've organized 3 small tourneys so far here out west. My primary goal for all the players who come to play is that they have a good time. If they have fun and enjoyed playing despite how far they had to drive of fly, then my goal is accomplished. If I saw someone bring that fleet to an event I ran, I'd feel the need to apologize to the other players. I'd apologize to them for having wasted a day to play games and an event with a foregone conclusion. It would take a miracle of dice or incredibly poor tactics to lose that way - you practically have to throw the games to lose when you play with a broken fleet.

10 saggs, 2 hunters+scout, and now the Gaim.

Everyone, please make an attempt to have fun first. Remember, this is a game.

</rant>

sorry for the length of that. Its not often I go on a tear.

Chernobyl

 

[EDFDarkAngel1]

I couldn't justify going to Ohio on such short notice for a smallish tourney.

Congratz on the win, Gaim sounds really awesome and I haven't had a chance to fight them.

Dark Angel

 

[Ripple]

Just one point,

The ten sag fleet, the two hunter and a scout fleet were both basically laughed off by Mongoose until folks brought them to a tourney and ruined it for other folks. I'm not saying it should be that way, I'm saying it just happens that it is. Matt even went so far as to put up his own play test of the Sag fleet to show it wasn't an issue. Until there is a real show that official events designed to help market the product can be converted to a show of the failure of the design, nothing will change.

What does this mean?

The ONLY place it's appropriate to break out the broken fleet is at an official event, because only there will it actually looked at by the people who might make changes. Only there will a variety of people play against it at one sitting and demostrate that it is not the player losing, but the whole field losing, that shows something is broken.

If Matt wasn't defending the Gaim (and the value of shadow fighters) I would agree. No need to demo the issue, but there has been no acknowledgement of the issue from the folks who can do something about it.

Sorry... counter rant over...

Ripple

 

[Tank]

I thought I would post on this as I have participated in a few tourneys on this side of the pond:

My own personal view of these tourneys is something to go to to have a good time, meet new people, play the best i can, see different fleet compositions and new tactics. You get out of it what you put in.

I am somewhat of a cynic because bear in mind it is just a dice game and I have seen what happens when a player consistently uses the right tactics, gets in the right positions yet the dice gods are not with him, a very frustrating experience!!

I will point out I am in no way, shape or form a wargamer, ACTA is the only thing I play and I do it because I enjoy it, even (mostly) when the dice gods do not favour me.

As to cheese fleets, I have played one once in a tourney (Minbari) and then never again, I dont see the point in fielding them, they potentially detract from the enjoyment of the day and can earn the player a dubious reputation.

That being said I would suggest that players really think about what they think they are going to get out of winning a tourney through any means, there is no big cash prize pot, no global ranking, at the end of the day it is only the respect of your peers that you are going to gain and repeated use of "cheese" fleets is unlikely to gain you any respect.

 

[Ripple]

He didn't do it to 'win' anything.

I guess that's one thing I see as being very different from what is often said about folks who take these fleets once in a while. There are folks who are trying to win at any cost, and then there are folks out to prove a point that others are denying.

I just don't see the two as related at all. How many times have you seen folks on these boards say things like 'well I don't see fleet x winning all the tourneys so it can't be too unbalanced'. When what has really happened is the better players have chosen not to bring the cheese, and the experience of the game becomes teaching the new guys what is unacceptable even though it's right there in the rulebook.

Ripple

 

[thehod]

what were your general tactics with the Gaim fleet? I know someone who is doing a Gaim fleet.

 

[Enalut]

My general tactics were relatively simple:

Fleet: 2 Battle and 6 skirmish queens.

Stand off and move parallel to the edge of the board while emining the opposing fleet concentrations. Generally I would go for targets of opportunity first: concentrations of ships and usually prioritizing those that were the most threat. I usually kept 4 Skirmish Queens and both battle queens as a single squadron to maximize the firepower delivere at once. The remaining two ships were used to finshi off ships or remove fighter cover.

Deploy Fighters with the intent of converting them to missiles and attack larger ships in mass as they approached, but only after I could bring sufficient numbers in range on a given turn to overwhelm defenses.

Use Breaching pods to pick off targets of opportunity and especially to mob any large ship coming through a jump point close into my fleet. I will say that I was most surprised by the effectiveness of the breaching pods/boarding actions. They probably won me 2 of the 3 games.

EDIT: I am not offended by anything beign said--I am honeslty interested in people's reactions, especially those present.

 

[tschuma]

What enemy fleets did you fight against and what type of ships did they have?

If you can't remember don't worry, just curious.

Tschuma

 

[CaptBavo]

Myself and a friend from Omaha, NE were going to make the 11 hour drive and participate in this tournament, but because of some last minute issues couldn't make it. While we were concerned about a cheesy Gaim fleet being played(that fleet has been banned by our group as well), we still thought it would be fun to participate and play against some new opponents. However, I think I would have been a little agitated playing against them, just as when our group still allowed them.

Still wish we could have made it though.

 

[Enalut]

1st Game:

ISA:

Taralin: Destroyed by Emines turn 5
WS Scout: Destroyed by Emines turn 3
NoloTar: Destroyed by Emines turn 2
NoloTar: Destroyed by Emines turn 2
NoloTar: Captured by Boarding turn 4
NoloTar: Captured by Boarding turn 2

Gaim Losses: 1 Skirmish Queen lost to the main beam from the Taralin

2nd Game:

Centari:

Adira: Escaped turn 4 by flying off the table 1 turn before being captured by the 13 troops I had landed on board (she was a few points above being skeletoned)
Liati: Killed by Emines in 1 turn
(Both of the above Jumped into close range of my main force on turn 2)
Kutai: Killed by Emines Turn 2
Kutai: Killed by Emines Turn 4
Corvan: fled of the board turn 3.

Gaim Losses: none

3rd Game

Abbai:

Dreadnought: Skeletoned (game called by time)
Defender: Destroyed in a boarding action (damned crit causing troops when I was only a few crew away from capturing it!) turn 3
Illuminti: Captured in a boarding action turn 3
(The above 3 jumped into close range of my main force on turn 2)

Carrier (Milani?) Killed by Emines turn 3?
Scout: Survived
Scout: Killed by Emines turn 4
Patrol Ship w/ Combat laser: Killed by Emines turn
Patrol Shipw/Combat laser: escaped by flying of the board pursued by a hoard of flying missles

Gaim Losses: 2 Skirmish Queens (lost to the combined fire from the Dreadnought and the defender); 1 Battle Queen Crippled to the fire from the Dreadnoght.

 

[EDFDarkAngel1]

Wow... breaching pods must be amazing since they only carry one troop. Is there a Gaim benefit to troops? I've conducted attacks before, just seems more effective than I was putting hopes on.

Dark Angel

 

[Methos5000]

Wow... breaching pods must be amazing since they only carry one troop. Is there a Gaim benefit to troops? I've conducted attacks before, just seems more effective than I was putting hopes on.

Dark Angel

Gaim Troops get to roll 2 dice and take the high one for boarding actions, so yes Gaim have the best troops in the game and the Skirmish queens carry 4 breaching pods each

 

[Chernobyl]

I'm OK with giving lots of breaching pods (they are the "swarm fleet") but ant overpower by numbers, not by their crack training. Maybe this 2-die rule should go away too.

Chern

 

[Harry Lonsdale]

2nd Game:

Centari:

Adira: Escaped turn 4 by flying off the table 1 turn before being captured by the 13 troops I had landed on board (she was a few points above being skeletoned)
Liati: Killed by Emines in 1 turn
(Both of the above Jumped into close range of my main force on turn 2)
Kutai: Killed by Emines Turn 2
Kutai: Killed by Emines Turn 4
Corvan: fled of the board turn 3.

Gaim Losses: none

Are you sure it was an Adira? I thought the tournament was 7-pt Raid.

 

[armbarred]

It was actually an Octurian.

 

[eurotia]

First off, let me introduce myself, as I have not posted on this forum before. My name is Carlos Fernandez. I have played tactical miniatures games for all of my adult life, which is getting close to two decades. I won the first Gen-Con Bab 5 Wars tournament (by Agents of Gaming). I was invited to join the Indiana group recently and now love A Call to Arms. I am a lifelong Centauri player.

I am the one that laid into Enalut with such fervor on Saturday, at the end of the tournament.

I understand his stated motive to try and bring balance to this game by highlighting the unbalanced nature of the Gaim fleet. Heck, I did the same thing almost ten years ago at that Gen-Con tourney. Back then, I felt the Centauri were unbalanced. What are now called Ion Cannons were called Twin-Arays back then, and I felt they were too powerful. No-one on the AoG forums agreed with me so I felt it was in order to make a point. I won that tourney primarily on the strength of Twin-Arrays. Less than a month later, AoG put out a correction on the Twin-Array knocking it down in damage and range.

I made a difference! And so, I can understand Enalut's stated motive.

What I didn't like about Enalut's force was not the race he chose, but the fleet he chose. 6 of the Shuuka skirmish queen shows that he is a power gamer. These folks (and I have met plenty of them in my time) think that one ship is best, so they take many of them, to the exclusion of anything else. Enalut came up to me before the tournament and said he was thinking about taking 8 Sho'Kovs (the one with the single Ion Torp each round). So, I think I am accurate in shoehorning this guy into "Power Gamer" status.

Also, those Sho'Kovs would not have been metal. They would have been 20# bond white paper photocopied chits. I also didn't like his Gaim fleet because it was made of paper. I had stated earlier to my group that I thought it would be awesome if someone would bring a Gaim fleet, just to see all the painted metal. I would have shaken his hand at the dedication to the game. (And his dedication to the Gaim!) But no. His fleet was lame paper. All of the people from Indiana worked diligently the week before the tourney to get their fleets painted. We had a painting session the night before. The Narn player in our group received his G'vrahn in the mail and painted it the NIGHT BEFORE the tournament.

Enalut admitted that he thought the fleet was "obnoxious" on many occasions during the tournemant. I asked him if he could empathize with those around the table at the final game. Could he sense that no-one (including himself) was having any fun? I don't think he understood my question. He said he was trying to prove a point. I then asked if he would be willing to give up his championship and the prize. His silence to that question spoke volumes to me. In actuality, he was there to win. His stated motive, in my opinion, was nothing more than a smoke screen. And I think it would be big of him to admit it. After the tourney, he got out of the store pretty quickly. I would have, too.

-Carlos

 

[eurotia]

I do not think the Gaim are THAT over the top. Yes, they are unbalanced, but I feel they can become balanced with ONE correction.

Change their emines to Slow Loading.

This will REALLY hamper their firepower. One of the biggest disadvantages of the Gaim is that they have so many fighters, but their primary weapons kill everything within 3" including their own stuff. If the Gaim cannot fire their emines agian until round 3, most enemy fleets will have had a chance to get closer to engage. This will make their emines less effective.

And the best thing about this change is that you will start to see ships that use other weapons. Those Heavy Gatling Lasers are pretty cool.

I don't think the Gaim breaching pods are unbalanced. I like the fact that there is a race out there that excells in boarding actions. Otherwise you would not see that tactic played at all.

There were two fleets at the tourney that could have given Enalut's Gaim fleet a run for their money, even as is. One player would have beaten him easily with his Drakh, IMO. GEG make short work of 2 die emines. And I think the Narn player would have done well. That G'Vrahn is tough. Emines and Ion Torps would have done very well indeed against the Gaim.

I feel that there were two decisions by the tournament organizers that almost INVITED someone to play that lame Gaim fleet. First, the allowance of paper or cardboard chits. I hear that it is Mongoose policy to allow such. But it doesn't do ANYONE any good. Especially not the store that hosted the tournament. Give the retailer some love! I am strongly against this allowance, and wish that Mongoose re-think this policy.

The second was the change in the rules from the rulebook regarding asteroids. I thought it was very cool that the mission had a planet and 4 asteroid fields. But why (oh why!) did the tournament organizers make these fields transparent (3+ stealth)? Having something to hide behind is cool. Makes for a more tactical gaming experience, IMO. In the tournament emines could shoot through them with impunity. No drawback whatsoever.

If these two rules were not in effect, such a Gaim fleet would not have been nearly as viable. Everyone involved would have had more fun, and the tournament would have been successful.

-Carlos