Unskilled Melee

[BP]

I use Melee(Unarmed Combat) as a default skill like Athletics with no -3 DM penalty for not having it.

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  In RL, I've seen a number of unskilled fisticuffs which all generally resulted in marginal failure/success which is what I'd expect commonly from level-0 'skill'. Ex: one party hits the other in the nose with closed fist - dislocates/'breaks' nose, but also manages to break own hand.

So any house rules out there for Melee(Unarmed Combat)?

 

[Vargrz]

I use Melee(Unarmed Combat) as a default skill like Athletics with no -3 DM penalty for not having it.

I still apply the -3DM, but allow the addition of any adds for strength or dexterity to offset the minus. In other words an agile guy or a really strong dude has some edge even if untrained. I've even given an occasional + based on Intelligence if the player comes up with a creative idea ("I shine the flashlight in his eyes and while punching him with my other hand").

These keep combat dynamic and still leaves some people unable to fight, which is also true from my experience.

 

[BP]

So your answer is no house rule for you. :wink:

Never met anyone, un-handicapped, who couldn't physically throw a punch*... and the average person actually trying against another average person will at least inflict pain and bruising. But, with the normal combat rules or as an Average task, the -3 DM gives the average Joe a 1 in 6 chance of marginal failure and a 1 in 12 of connecting without an option for self injury.

So any other house rules out there for Melee(Unarmed Combat)?

(*Unwilling is another aspect from unable.)

 

[renski]

At the minute I'm going for the full -3 unskilled penalty, someone who's had no training should be at a serious disadvantage when fighting someone who's had training. I agree it seems a bit odd that someone can't land a punch without at least some result.

But it's not something my group has done much of, normally their solution to most problems is a particle beam barbettes, Infantry Support Plasma Weapons, sometimes if they feel a more measured response is required, they burn it to a crisp using laser rifles and pistols.

But a reasonable house rule might be to allow players to trade their to hit penalty for a penalty on their damage roll? For example instead of -3 to hit and 1d6 damage, allow -1 to hit and 1d6-2 damage.

 

[BP]

Thanks!

I like that better than effectively giving everyone Melee-0*. Still has a reasonable chance to connect, but less effective at dealing damage is definitely more in line with my experience. I was trying to stay consistent with other rule precedents, but this exception would work for me.

(*Army, Citizen and Drifter all get Melee-0 in their Service Skills - so this still makes them count.)

 

[CosmicGamer]

But a reasonable house rule might be to allow players to trade their to hit penalty for a penalty on their damage roll? For example instead of -3 to hit and 1d6 damage, allow -1 to hit and 1d6-2 damage.

Interesting. If someone tries this could you please come back and let us know how it worked for you.

 

[renski]

Added this to my house rules. The players are currently stuck on a belter habitat, im sure it wont be long before they get in brawl. Though they're the type to bring a support weapon to a fist fight.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Added this to my house rules. The players are currently stuck on a belter habitat, im sure it wont be long before they get in brawl. Though they're the type to bring a support weapon to a fist fight.

What sort of fool turns up at a fist fight without something full auto, preferably belt fed. Fist fights can be dangerous :lol:

 

[alex_greene]

What people think happens:- Two unskilled guys face off. Both pull some stupid moves that they believe will make them look cool.

What actually happens:- Two unskilled guys face off. Both pull some stupid moves that they believe will make them look cool, but in fact are ripped off from some martial arts video game they once played. They swing limbs at each other fruitlessly, usually to catcalls and jeers. The fight is broken up, or the two guys end up rolling around in a love huddle on the ground until bouncers or police arrive to break it up.

Rough, but ultimately entertaining.

Compare it with an unskilled doofus against someone with even a modicum of training: pro cage fighter, boxer, squaddie. I don't mean Duke Norris skill levels. Just level-1.

- An unskilled guy tries to brawl against someone with Unarmed (melee)-1. The doofus with no brawling skill tries to look intimidating ("Come at me, bro!"). The skilled guy sizes up the doofus and lays him out on the floor, then moves on without breaking step. Unskilled brawler spends the rest of the night feeling very sore and sorry for himself.

I live in a barracks town. You'd be amazed how often this happens when some street guy comes up against a trained off-duty squaddie fresh out of boot.

Oh, and if they're off-duty coppers ... they don't punch. Throw, pin, disarm, grapple, backup arrives, doofus gets nicked.

 

[barnest2]

I live in a barracks town. You'd be amazed how often this happens when some street guy comes up against a trained off-duty squaddie fresh out of boot.

Unfortunately, this is utterly hilarious to watch. There is a reason you don't start on squaddies, and that's because they are trained, angry young men... Fun to watch though...

 

[BP]

Yep - point being, though, is that two unskilled people will still connect and still inflict some damage, albeit minimal compared to someone with experience. The RAW already accounts for skill in reactions and effectiveness.

 

[rust]

Hmm ... I know unskilled unarmed combat only from the
point of view of the medic who is called to take a look at
the "injuries". In about 90 % of all cases these are purely
superficial, and would in no way justify a reduction of any
characteristic (unless the game uses Dignity or Pride stats).
Things normally only get worse when several people beat
up a single victim, because they tend to continue where a
trained person would stop.

 

[BP]

I would assume damage is generally minimal.

Minimal damage can still affect movement and the like, so I expect stats to be lowered even by such, due to the tie-in with DMs. I can see upto a handful of points to reflect spranged wrists, black eyes, minor fractures and contusions and the like that heal within 1 to 3 days (ala the injury rules).

That said, in relooking at the rules, I realized unarmed is 1d6 (thought it was 1d3) - wow. A good chance of a bit more than 'superficial' or even minimal injury with that - even for the average Joe.

I also realized I would rather modify my custom armed combat rules for melee - nothing overtly wrong with the RAW, just lots of things I want differently.

 

[Vargrz]

I agree with the examples drawn from the real world when an untrained fighter faces a trained fighter. There really is a world of difference.

Also there was some question of how difficult it is to roll a "hit" with the untrained -3 penalty. Watch boxing or MMA and you'll see that a 50% hit to punch ration if fantastic for most fighters.

 

[BP]

I agree with the examples drawn from the real world when an untrained fighter faces a trained fighter. There really is a world of difference.

Yep, never disagreed with that, as I was explicitly trying to address unskilled vs. unskilled. Removing the -3 DM, though, would have closed the gap, since the rules don't directly change the odds between unskilled vs unskilled and unskilled vs skilled for the unskilled, but rather support the opponent using skill to dodge and parry (not as big a gap).

I liked the -1 to attack/-2 damage, but that was before I realized I was wrong about the 'attack roll' ...

...Also there was some question of how difficult it is to roll a "hit" with the untrained -3 penalty. ...

You got it on the nose (pun intended) with the "hit" - in re-reading the combat rules I realized the 'attack roll' is about doing damage (excepting armour), not specifically a 'hit' or connecting as I wrongly referred to it. I missed this given the different granularity in armed combat which seems to track single shots which would generally do damage (barring armour) every time they hit (as well as more abstracted automatic fire).

With that in mind, can definitely like the 1 in 12 chance the base -3 DM results in, of doing damage, for an unskilled fighter, and that the -3 DM reduces the value of the effect that carries over into damage. So I'd stick to the RAW for this one.

Ironically, I do want to track individual punches (or combination attacks) for melee (play by play), among other things, so I won't be using the RAW for combat.

 

[hector]

You could always say that a punch from someone untrained that misses by 3 or less simply didn't connect with enough force/accuracy to cause actual damage. No change in rules, but the description actually makes sense.

 

[Vargrz]

Another aspect of untrained fighters is to pick up whatever is and hand and hit the other guy with it! I assign a positive DM to anyone who thinks of this!