Truther Travellers

[ottarrus]

Followers is a function of SOC and the referee throwing a plot harpoon, not some arbitrary fake stat.
'Truther' should have been renamed 'Conspiracy Theorist' with the whole FOL mechanic removed.
OTOH, maybe they could add a Call of Cthulhu SAN statistic... the lower your SAN the deeper down the rabbit hole you go *chuckle*

 

[Limpin Legin]

Followers was a poorly thought-out mechanic. Scientists have followers (Sagan, Einstein, Feynman). Musicians have followers (Taylor Swift, New Kids on the Block, Alan Jackson). Cult Leaders have followers (Manson, Koresh, Trump). Futbol players have followers (Pele, Messi, etc.). Almost every career path can have followers, so it is stupid to give Followers to only one career path. Either everyone gets them at varying degrees, or no one should get them, mechanically-speaking

True, except you don't get a significant following until you have delivered 'The Message' to the masses. 'The Message' doesn't happen just because of career paths - it is something more unique.
Take for example Galileo. He was a scientist and a Truther whose message could be summed up "the Earth revolves around the Sun, and not the other way round." And he got arrested and imprisoned for that message. Today, we take his message for granted (inside and outside of science), and anyone becoming a scientist doesn't gain a unique following (FOL) for uttering the same sort of words. But in Galileo's day, this sort of 'Message' was ground breaking, and considered a threat to the authorities.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Followers is a function of SOC and the referee throwing a plot harpoon, not some arbitrary fake stat.
'Truther' should have been renamed 'Conspiracy Theorist' with the whole FOL mechanic removed.
OTOH, maybe they could add a Call of Cthulhu SAN statistic... the lower your SAN the deeper down the rabbit hole you go *chuckle*

SAN could represent the "disconnect from reality" most conspiracy theorists go through. The deeper they get into their theories, the more disconnected from reality they are.

The problem that you are going to encounter is that Traveller treats conspiracy theorists as a career path. That is stupid. Most people I know who are hard-core conspiracy theorists work in other careers. None of them are getting paid to be conspiracy theorists. Even morons like Rogan and Alex Jones. Their money came from being media figures.

So, if you are going to have a "Truther" career and use the SAN stat, then Truthers should get a penalty to that stat based on how far down the rabbit hole they go.

 

[MasterGwydion]

True, except you don't get a significant following until you have delivered 'The Message' to the masses. 'The Message' doesn't happen just because of career paths - it is something more unique.

Bullshit! Only one career path gains followers, therefore, by definition, you must be a Truther to have Message. Therefore, you must have a Message to gain followers. All Truthers have a Message and no one else does. So, put simply, you cannot have followers without being a member of the Truther Career path. This is one of the things I disagree with, with this Followers mechanic.

Take for example Galileo. He was a scientist and a Truther whose message could be summed up "the Earth revolves around the Sun, and not the other way round." And he got arrested and imprisoned for that message. Today, we take his message for granted (inside and outside of science), and anyone becoming a scientist doesn't gain a unique following (FOL) for uttering the same sort of words. But in Galileo's day, this sort of 'Message' was ground breaking, and considered a threat to the authorities.

By your logic, everyone who makes a breakthrough in a field and is ridiculed or prosecuted for said breakthough is a Truther and not a Scholar or any of the other careers.

Edward R Murrow had a much larger following than Galileo. Was he a Truther or a Jounalist? He delivered the "Truth" every night on TV for decades.

How about Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein? Were they Truthers or Jounalists?

 

[ottarrus]

The whole Truther career is nonsense, or to put as sharp a point on it as possible, utterly stupid.
Conspiracy theorists are either plotlines for referees or player character RP. It doesn't require a 'career' of its own because it isn't a career, it's a belief or viewpoint.
And don't we have enough of this lunacy in real life?

 

[Sigtrygg]

They are called followers, but in actuality there are better words for them...

acolyte, cultist, apostle, disciple, bishop, holy warrior, jihadi,

You/we/Traveller are using follower to mean a fan, a celebrity supporter, a groupie even. I would suggest that a Truther's folowers are a lot more dangerous than a football supporter or Swifty...

 

[Ol'Weedy]

I tried using the Truther/Believer to model a prophet NPC on a backwater planet. I found the character skill mix tended to push the finished product (NPC) into some weird directions that didn't make sense, and ended up using the Citizen career for him.
I don't mind the concept of the classes, but think they need a lot of modification to actually work.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Ender became a Truther, a Speaker for the Dead, sometimes telling unwanted truths.

Traveller has always maintained its distance from in depth study of human religions, ideologies, philosophies, theologies in the 57th century.

How are the major world religions of today in the 57th century? Have there been any new religious movements... I'd be amazed if there haven't been any.

When I first read Dune all those years ago I hadn't a clue what Zensunni or Orange Catholic signified (I was only 11 and had only ever encountered school taught Christian Protestantism). With age came understanding. I think it better for referees to tackle such issues in their own settings and for Mongoose to steer well clear.

The Truther is a career that may be of use to a referee for a particular campaign.

 

[MasterGwydion]

They are called followers, but in actuality there are better words for them...

What did you say? That Traveller has a horrible history of not knowing what words mean? Bandwidth anyone?

acolyte, cultist, apostle, disciple, bishop, holy warrior, jihadi,

You are using follower to mean a fan, a celebrity supporter, a groupie even. I would suggest that a Truther's foloowers are a lot more dangerouus than a football supporter or Swifty...

Are you sure they are more dangerous?

Top 15 Deadliest Sports Riots of All Time

Sports fans have, in many cases, the type of dedication, pride and devotion that is sometimes seen in cults and in religious zealots. About fifteen seconds on a sports fan themed Facebook group can sh

www.thesportster.com

 

[Sigtrygg]

Now do the deadliest 15 religion based "riots" for a comparison...

| Event | Year | Location | Estimated Death Toll | Religious Context |
|-------|------|----------|----------------------|-------------------|
| Partition of India | 1947 | India/Pakistan | ~200,000–2 million | Hindu-Muslim-Sikh violence during independence |
| St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre | 1572 | France | ~10,000–30,000 | Catholic massacre of Huguenots (Protestants) |
| Anti-Sikh Riots | 1984 | India | ~3,000–8,000 | Retaliation after Indira Gandhi’s assassination |
| Bosnian Genocide | 1992–1995 | Bosnia | ~100,000 | Ethno-religious conflict: Muslim Bosniaks vs. Orthodox Serbs |
| Gujarat Riots | 2002 | India | ~1,000–2,000 | Hindu-Muslim violence |
| Kristallnacht | 1938 | Nazi Germany | ~100 killed, thousands arrested | Anti-Jewish pogrom |
| Hebron Massacre | 1929 | Palestine | ~67 Jews killed | Jewish-Muslim tensions under British Mandate |
| Babri Masjid Demolition & Riots | 1992 | India | ~2,000 | Hindu-Muslim violence |
| Rwandan Genocide | 1994 | Rwanda | ~800,000 | Ethnic conflict with religious undertones |
| Armenian Genocide | 1915–1923 | Ottoman Empire | ~1.5 million | Christian Armenians targeted by Muslim Ottomans |
| Taiping Rebellion | 1850–1864 | China | ~20–30 million | Christian-inspired rebellion against Qing dynasty |
| Thirty Years' War | 1618–1648 | Europe | ~8 million | Catholic-Protestant conflict |
| Sri Lankan Civil War (Black July) | 1983 | Sri Lanka | ~3,000+ | Sinhalese Buddhist vs. Tamil Hindu tensions |
| Kashmir Insurgency | 1989–present | India | ~40,000–100,000 | Muslim separatism vs. Indian state |
| Maluku Sectarian Conflict | 1999–2002 | Indonesia | ~5,000 | Christian-Muslim violence |

And this is why I think it is a topic best avoided for a game which is about having fun

 

[MasterGwydion]

Now do the deadliest 15 religion based "riots" for a comparison...

| Event | Year | Location | Estimated Death Toll | Religious Context |
|-------|------|----------|----------------------|-------------------|
| Partition of India | 1947 | India/Pakistan | ~200,000–2 million | Hindu-Muslim-Sikh violence during independence |
| St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre | 1572 | France | ~10,000–30,000 | Catholic massacre of Huguenots (Protestants) |
| Anti-Sikh Riots | 1984 | India | ~3,000–8,000 | Retaliation after Indira Gandhi’s assassination |
| Bosnian Genocide | 1992–1995 | Bosnia | ~100,000 | Ethno-religious conflict: Muslim Bosniaks vs. Orthodox Serbs |
| Gujarat Riots | 2002 | India | ~1,000–2,000 | Hindu-Muslim violence |
| Kristallnacht | 1938 | Nazi Germany | ~100 killed, thousands arrested | Anti-Jewish pogrom |
| Hebron Massacre | 1929 | Palestine | ~67 Jews killed | Jewish-Muslim tensions under British Mandate |
| Babri Masjid Demolition & Riots | 1992 | India | ~2,000 | Hindu-Muslim violence |
| Rwandan Genocide | 1994 | Rwanda | ~800,000 | Ethnic conflict with religious undertones |
| Armenian Genocide | 1915–1923 | Ottoman Empire | ~1.5 million | Christian Armenians targeted by Muslim Ottomans |
| Taiping Rebellion | 1850–1864 | China | ~20–30 million | Christian-inspired rebellion against Qing dynasty |
| Thirty Years' War | 1618–1648 | Europe | ~8 million | Catholic-Protestant conflict |
| Sri Lankan Civil War (Black July) | 1983 | Sri Lanka | ~3,000+ | Sinhalese Buddhist vs. Tamil Hindu tensions |
| Kashmir Insurgency | 1989–present | India | ~40,000–100,000 | Muslim separatism vs. Indian state |
| Maluku Sectarian Conflict | 1999–2002 | Indonesia | ~5,000 | Christian-Muslim violence |

And this is why I think it is a topic best avoided for a game which is about having fun

My point being that they are both equally dangerous. How many followers of Tim Brady exist versus followers of each of the various religions?

It is a game about fun and I very much agree with you on "sensitive topics" such as religion in games. Hell. I live in Honduras and I won't discuss futbol here with anyone. That is a good way to get shot. When running "sensitive topics" in games I tend to tone down their "evil" unless those "sensitive topics" wish to be played by the whole table. I still tend to tone them down. In My games you will almost never be killed because you rooted for the wrong sports team in the wrong location, but that happens often in Honduras in real life. Genocide is also something common in real life that I don't usually address in My games. Same with police indiscriminately killing civilians. Happens all of the time here in Honduras, but I definitely don't want that in My games. It is too depressing. In games, We address toned down caricatures of evil, not the realistic evils that exist in the real world. Why? Because, otherwise the game wouldn't be fun. I totally agree with you on that.

 

[Condottiere]

Degrees of fanaticism.

From finding their viewpoint agreeable, to absolute devotion.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Degrees of fanaticism.

From finding their viewpoint agreeable, to absolute devotion.

True. Degree of devotion is another important facet of Followers. This could be represented with Affinity and Enmity rules from the Traveller Companion page 27.


Eventhough I hate the whole Follower mechanic, this may be a method that makes it somewhat less horrible.

 

[Limpin Legin]

Only one career path gains followers, therefore, by definition, you must be a Truther to have Message. Therefore, you must have a Message to gain followers. All Truthers have a Message and no one else does. So, put simply, you cannot have followers without being a member of the Truther Career path

Pardon you, I think that is what I said, except I have room to agree with the mechanic, once FOL is understood a bit more.

 

[Limpin Legin]

By your logic, everyone who makes a breakthrough in a field and is ridiculed or prosecuted for said breakthough is a Truther and not a Scholar or any of the other careers.

No. The logic I presented, and TC seems to agree, sis that the "Message" or "breakthru" also risked rubbing against the local authorities. It happened in Galileo's case. The reason such people become "Truther" in the first place, is that they don't agree with the established authority and, ... story would have it ... they have a different take on truth. Not all "breakthroughs" undermine the local authority, which appears to be your assumption of my presentation. You could be a gentle scientist living in a space lab in orbit around an unchartered planet, discovering the local ecology ... none of that is necessarily challenging his paymaster's authority, or giving him chance to foster "A Message" that is vastly unique.

 

[Anstett]

True. Degree of devotion is another important facet of Followers. This could be represented with Affinity and Enmity rules from the Traveller Companion page 27.

I have those combined with the other pieces from Pirates as well.

Dragonslayer Space | Main / PerceivedAttitude

 

[MonsterX]

No. The logic I presented, and TC seems to agree, sis that the "Message" or "breakthru" also risked rubbing against the local authorities. It happened in Galileo's case. The reason such people become "Truther" in the first place, is that they don't agree with the established authority and, ... story would have it ... they have a different take on truth. Not all "breakthroughs" undermine the local authority, which appears to be your assumption of my presentation. You could be a gentle scientist living in a space lab in orbit around an unchartered planet, discovering the local ecology ... none of that is necessarily challenging his paymaster's authority, or giving him chance to foster "A Message" that is vastly unique.

No. Galileo was a scientist, not a "Truther". Scientists often rub authorities the wrong way, because, ideally, if they do it well, they follow the data - i.e. they test propositions against empirical reality. Truthers do not do that, because they don't need to: they start "knowing" a Truth and only seek information confirming what they already believe to be true, rejecting as invalid anything which does not fit their worldview.

For example, Galileo had a model of the universe based on observations he had made of the movement of planets and moons. He used his telescope to check the various astronomical objects he was able to find, and found that the planets orbited the sun, and Jupiter had moons that orbited it. He was very much on communication with the other "top" scientists of the time, and so his starting point was that he know about the latest and greatest research of this time. Most importantly, he understood ideas of Copernicus, which was the cutting edge of the day. Through observation of Jupiter's moons, he tested the Copernican understanding of the universe with the Sun at the center against Ptolomy's model with the Earth at the center, and found the Copernican to be correct. Note, actually neither is correct, but the Copernican model is much closer and therefore he took our understanding forward.

Now, take Flat Earthers, who are sort of typical Truthers. They start from the idea that the Earth is flat, and then just sort of make shit up to try and build a model that makes it work. It doesn't actually work, mainly because the world isn't flat and so inconsistencies pop up, but they ignore these. They don't all know about testing theories by experiment, but some have heard of this. However, they aren't aware of the methods or previous research that was done on this issue, since they are not trained and educated as scientists, so they don't have the background to devise a test. In fact, a round Earth actually pre-dates the Ptolemic model (which had a round Earth at the center), being settle science by the time of Aristotle. For this reason, Flat Earthers find it hard to get serious scientists these days to engage in concrete scientific discussions about their ideas. However, this does not stop them, but rather motivates their anger at being excluded and ignored, and helps them build community.

The flat earth is an extreme case, but there are any number of Truther theories: creationism, climate denialism - but the defining characteristic you start from a proposition and defend it, instead of attack it and try to test it as real scientists do. If Galileo had seen the moons of Jupiter moving differently, in a Ptolomic way he would have promoted that kind of model: he would not have defended heliocentrism if empirical observations had shown it to be wrong. A Truther has his model and defends it and just shifts the discussion when it doesn't add up; he uses his ignorance of the previous science as a sort of "shield of stupidity"

This does not mean that the scientists are always right - they are the first to admit they get things wrong. Scientists realize they don't know very much compared to everything there is to know. It doesn't mean that Truthers are always wrong - sometimes there really is a Dark Conspiracy and a stopped clock is right twice a day. The difference is that scientific method (ideally, if they are good scientists) is to systematically test all assertions and reject the ones that are wrong. Truthers do not do this, because for the them the "Truth" is already known, and also because they don't know how to.

 

[CordwainerFish]

For a Truther, there is never evidence against their theory. There is only evidence for it and evidence of the cover-up.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Galileo was not a scientist, the term had not been invented back then.
The term scientist was coined as a response to a linguistic challenge posed by Samuel Taylor Coleridge. Coleridge objected to the lack of a proper term for someone who practiced science, like his great friend and drug supplier Sir Humphrey Davy who he referred to as "a man of science". He found "natural philosopher" too broad a term and philosophically loaded. This spurred William Whewell (polymath, philosopher, and science historian) to propose the term scientist during a meeting of the British Association for the Advancement of Science. The term first appeared in print in 1834 in a review of Mary Somerville’s On the Connexion of the Physical Sciences.

 

[Sigtrygg]

For a Truther, there is never evidence against their theory. There is only evidence for it and evidence of the cover-up.

Evidence can never prove, it can only disprove... everything is unproven until disproved... ontology is a bit weird.

Or as AI re-writes it:

“Evidence doesn’t prove—it only falsifies within a given ontological framework. And since ontology itself is unstable, all knowledge remains provisional.”