Travellers Needed - The Future of Traveller

[Ol'Weedy]

And of course the TL15 air filters that only last for 2 weeks.

I agreed with everything up to this point. A mechanic was showing me the difference in a bearing from a 1958 Chevy truck, with the part used today. They were identical except for one thing, The 58 version had a grease nipple so it could be maintained, while the modern version was enclosed (i.e. designed to fail).
Pretty much across the board, (non-electrical) items made pre 1970's are better quality than those available today.
I can see the TL 14 version lasting 2 weeks, but no way will the TL 15 version last longer than a coffee break.

 

[Vormaerin]

Besides, it is not like those air filters actually stop filtering the air after 2 weeks. The ones on the Type S just let the air get stinky. It's still perfectly safe to breathe Leastwise, the original comment in game about air filter replacements came in The Imperial Fringe, which was an early adventure about a crew of a Scout/Courier. It commented that the default air system was problematic and got increasingly smelly after several weeks of use and unbearable after a few months. Replacing the air filters regularly was the cheapest way to avoid the problem. There were longer lasting temporary solutions that were more costly, or you could spend a good chunk of money to upgrade the system entirely. Though the better system was bigger, so cut into the already tiny cargo capacity.

 

[MaxTac Transfer]

I agreed with everything up to this point. A mechanic was showing me the difference in a bearing from a 1958 Chevy truck, with the part used today. They were identical except for one thing, The 58 version had a grease nipple so it could be maintained, while the modern version was enclosed (i.e. designed to fail).
Pretty much across the board, (non-electrical) items made post 1970's are better quality than those available today.
I can see the TL 14 version lasting 2 weeks, but no way will the TL 15 version last longer than a coffee break.

Sorry but 1970s "Deathtraps on Wheels" where worse designs than most modern cars. No crash cage on the sides, a steering column that skwered you in certain accident cases, no anti lock breaks (And to quote Walter Röhrl - "On a good day I can outperform the ABS - barely"), lousy milage per liter, mechnical ignition that needed to be re-adjusted ever so often... Been there, happy to see the crapmobiles become razor blades.

 

[Vormaerin]

Since those two things aren't related, both of them can be true. Parts can be better made and more durable AND safety features and design be inferior.

 

[actionman]

no way will the TL 15 version last longer than a coffee break

I wonder why that is. Things that make you go hmm.

People wouldn't tolerate it. They'd go to some TL 15 planet and buy aftermarket parts that aren't crap, the same way people buy Japanese cars instead of American cars. Independent starship owner/operators might have something like filters custom fabricated instead of having to replace components every two weeks. People don't do that irl because there's no other planet to go to.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Sorry but 1970s "Deathtraps on Wheels" where worse designs than most modern cars. No crash cage on the sides, a steering column that skwered you in certain accident cases, no anti lock breaks (And to quote Walter Röhrl - "On a good day I can outperform the ABS - barely"), lousy milage per liter, mechnical ignition that needed to be re-adjusted ever so often... Been there, happy to see the crapmobiles become razor blades.

1972 Land Rover. Best mechanical device I have ever owned. No modern car or SUV can outlast the old Rovers. The best part is, I could fix it roadside with only a small toolbox. Can't do that these days.

 

[Vormaerin]

What makes you think that planet B will have better Ling Standard Products Special Gizmos than Planet A?

 

[Condottiere]

Planets tend to have large enough demand to support several competitors.

So, it would depend on vehicle regulations.

 

[Vormaerin]

Have you looked at most planets in the Imperium? They are about as populated as Hawai'i. AKA a mid sized city.

And, yes, of course it would depend on regulations. But regulations rarely enforce standards for durability, just safety. It relies on customers to actually spend more to get a better product and a market being robust enough that someone can survive making durable products in the face of their competitors making more money pumping out planned obsolescence.

Why do you think "Right to repair" is such a hard law to pass and enforce?

Anyway, no one has any idea what TL 15 will look like. For all we know, "buying a new filter" means printing one out in the ship's maintenance shop every week. It could be that TL 15 air filters are super amazingly precise to stop all kinds of pathogens from thousands of worlds, but as a result get clogged faster. And less cloggy ones are less safe. Who knows? However, the specific example is not, in fact, relevant.

The assertion that "high tech level means better quality" is not demonstrably not true. It might be true in certain cases and not true in other cases.

 

[Condottiere]

One option might be that components self regenerate.

 

[Arkathan]

Since those two things aren't related, both of them can be true. Parts can be better made and more durable AND safety features and design be inferior.

People forget that making parts unserviceable in order to kill off back yard mechanics was in addition to lawsuits and advocacy groups requiring advances in safety devices... which were used as an excuse to raise prices.

 

[actionman]

What makes you think that planet B will have better Ling Standard Products Special Gizmos than Planet A?

Aftermarket parts are made by a different manufacturer. Travellers smart enough to survive character creation should be smart enough to choose a manufacturer that makes better longer lasting air filters.

 

[actionman]

Have you looked at most planets in the Imperium? They are about as populated as Hawai'i. AKA a mid sized city.

Exactly. So many planets in Charted Space are not viable without imports, and couldn't support much of an industrial base. But, there are planets that could produce a better air filter.

It relies on customers to actually spend more to get a better product and a market being robust enough that someone can survive making durable products in the face of their competitors making more money pumping out planned obsolescence.

Why do you think "Right to repair" is such a hard law to pass and enforce?

Something else I'm considering is that the 3I and Charted Space is too large and too ungovernable for megacorporate manufacturers and their aristocratic backers to enforce policies that would be effective in restricting the proliferation of better quality replacement parts by other manufacturers.

I'm sure the Type S air filter nonsense was put in CT to force characters to spend money so they'll be in the 'poor starship crew grubbing in poverty and digging in the air-raft cushions for enough change to get their next cup of Basic, a single cup of which can keep a man going for a day' phase for longer, which is why I criticized it.

 

[actionman]

Ok I looked up the Type S air filter nonsense.

It's in CT Supplement 7, Traders & Gunboats, pg 16.

Peculiarities: The major fault of the type S scout/courier is its air system. Although of respectable quality for life support, it begins to smell after about three weeks of use. Thereafter, the smell becomes increasingly obnoxious, and most crew members find the smell intolerable after six weeks. The problem can be corrected by flushing the air system, which operation costs Cr1,000 for parts and components. Temporary respite may be obtained (for about a week) by replacing the system's air filters (at Cr200). Both these processes also require a plentiful supply of breathable air. Instead, the entire air system may be replaced with a better model; it costs Cr70,000 and requires sacrificing one ton of cargo space.

So I was wrong, the air system begins to smell after 3 weeks, not 2 weeks, and it looks like an aftermarket air system is available for the paltry sum of Cr70,000. It's still silly, as scout couriers would need the ability to operate away from maintenance facilities capable of flushing the air system. No wonder scouts have a low survival rate.

 

[tytalan]

I am still trying to figure out why the CRB has any reference to Charted Space. The CRB is a Core Book and not a Setting Book.

This would be your answer “While Traveller is intended to be used for any science fiction setting its players devise, the longest running commercially available universe (indeed, one of the oldest roleplaying game settings of all) is Charted Space.” CRB just above my post which you replied to.

 

[tytalan]

But as mentioned elsewhere, the core reality is that the "Imperium rules the space between planets" and "Imperial government starts at the subsector level" are concept that have been jettisoned. They just still linger around like a bad smell, causing wrinkling of noses.

Even High Guard disagrees with you. And I’m still waiting on your source for the jettisoned of the concept
“The seat of government for the Third Imperium is at Capital, an industrial and technological powerhouse, but due to the sheer distances and travel times involved within its star-spanning realm, the Imperial Navy is unable to be everywhere at once. As a result, the Imperium grants a large degree of autonomy to its subject worlds, demanding only that they abide by Imperial law and contribute to a united front against outside forces.” Pg. 3 High Guard 2022

 

[tytalan]

Ok I looked up the Type S air filter nonsense.

It's in CT Supplement 7, Traders & Gunboats, pg 16.

Peculiarities: The major fault of the type S scout/courier is its air system. Although of respectable quality for life support, it begins to smell after about three weeks of use. Thereafter, the smell becomes increasingly obnoxious, and most crew members find the smell intolerable after six weeks. The problem can be corrected by flushing the air system, which operation costs Cr1,000 for parts and components. Temporary respite may be obtained (for about a week) by replacing the system's air filters (at Cr200). Both these processes also require a plentiful supply of breathable air. Instead, the entire air system may be replaced with a better model; it costs Cr70,000 and requires sacrificing one ton of cargo space.

So I was wrong, the air system begins to smell after 3 weeks, not 2 weeks, and it looks like an aftermarket air system is available for the paltry sum of Cr70,000. It's still silly, as scout couriers would need the ability to operate away from maintenance facilities capable of flushing the air system. No wonder scouts have a low survival rate.

Like much of the CT books things have changed and complaining about something that has been changed make no sense

 

[Condottiere]

Ok I looked up the Type S air filter nonsense.

It's in CT Supplement 7, Traders & Gunboats, pg 16.

Peculiarities: The major fault of the type S scout/courier is its air system. Although of respectable quality for life support, it begins to smell after about three weeks of use. Thereafter, the smell becomes increasingly obnoxious, and most crew members find the smell intolerable after six weeks. The problem can be corrected by flushing the air system, which operation costs Cr1,000 for parts and components. Temporary respite may be obtained (for about a week) by replacing the system's air filters (at Cr200). Both these processes also require a plentiful supply of breathable air. Instead, the entire air system may be replaced with a better model; it costs Cr70,000 and requires sacrificing one ton of cargo space.

So I was wrong, the air system begins to smell after 3 weeks, not 2 weeks, and it looks like an aftermarket air system is available for the paltry sum of Cr70,000. It's still silly, as scout couriers would need the ability to operate away from maintenance facilities capable of flushing the air system. No wonder scouts have a low survival rate.

Atmospheric narrative.

 

[actionman]

Atmospheric narrative.

Atmospheric stank is more like it.

 

[actionman]

Like much of the CT books things have changed and complaining about something that has been changed make no sense

I'm complaining about inconsistencies in Traveller lore, a single cup of which can keep a man complaining for a day.