Travellers Needed - The Future of Traveller

[tytalan]

You are misusing the word that you can't spell, probably a Dunning Kruger effect. Your argument is that the majority of people would buy a £40 book to get 3 useful pages. I say that is your feelings on the issue rather than being backed by anything based on common sense.

No I never said that the majority of people would buy a book for 3 useful pages. Even that 3 useful pages is wrong since most people don’t buy books just to get three pages of new ship tech they buy it for its entirety the three pages are just a part of that.

As for wrong meaning no it was a wrong spelling which I will admit to the word I was meaning was anecdotal which does describe you argument.

 

[MongooseMatt]

I haven't compared them side by side, but is the charcter generation in Explorer's and Nerchant's the same as the core rule book - have to go check now...

Any changes would be extremely small and not rules-based.

So a couple of years out at minimum... hmmm 2027, why does that ring a bell?

Unlikely. It is an obvious date, and it was discussed, but doing an Update book just because of an anniversary... does not really sit right with me. An Update Core Rulebook will come out when it is needed, and not before. Plus, work would have to start next year, so really not that far off.

An anniversary cover, however... that might be a thing. We'll have to see how the print runs fall.

How can I find out if a new system is useful and popular if I don't have the book with the 3 pages? Putting these updates in JTAS would be an alternative solution to the compendium, unless you moved JTAS to a more regular periodical - 4 issues per year, 2... offer a subscription model to fund it.

It is certainly an idea, but given that we tend to print things when they are ready as opposed to strict deadlines... I am not sure this would properly work

Forum members are usually very kind in copying snippets of new rules into threads when asked, if that is allowed as fair use (which is appears to be since I don't recall a single instance of you asking anyone to delete something) why not just have a shared folder or a pinned forum post where such snippets can be easily found? Such a collection may actually help authors keep on top of current rules.

I am not not saying this couldn't be a thing However, Effort vs. Effect we are generally talking about really minor rules, often limited to specific areas of Charted Space... I can see the value of what you are proposing but I am not persuaded that it is something that should be enacted with haste.

Slightly Longer Answer: This might tie into something else that is being tinkered with, along the lines of a digital tools set for Traveller. However, that is a project that is somewhat ballooning, and it has many questions that at the moment we do not have good answers for (not least being do we want to blow six figures on something that a good portion of which would not be charged for to users - I mean, it would be seriously cool, but...).

Lots of things in the works, and what you are proposing is one of them. Just need to get round blocks into square holes, and then get all the ducks waddling in a vaguely straight line.

(Now beginning to understand why WotC used to have two people on its Spine Design Team...).

 

[Endie]

What numbers? Prove it. Prove it to me that majority will by a £40 book just to get 3 pages.

I am not claiming "anecdotal evidence", I am claiming that sane people with limited budgets don't spend £40 on 3 pages.

Alexa, what's a hilarious straw man?

Tytalan is right: a games publishing company (small market, tight margins) that wants to survive cannot dedicate part of an FTE to maintaining a bonus PDF that gives away rules from multiple books just becuse a hardcore forum poster with a frequently- and volubly-stated ambiguous relationship to them says he won't buy what they know many others (like me) absolutely do buy.

It's solipsistic to think that just because you're only interested in the three pages of crunch that people like me (and the thousands of others who undeniably buy these sourcebooks) don't exist. We do, and as Tytalan has patiently said several times: the growth in both Mongoose's product line and (apparently) income demonstrate that in empirical terms.

 

[tytalan]

Forum members are usually very kind in copying snippets of new rules into threads when asked, if that is allowed as fair use (which is appears to be since I don't recall a single instance of you asking anyone to delete something) why not just have a shared folder or a pinned forum post where such snippets can be easily found? Such a collection may actually help authors keep on top of current rules.

Mat gave you a very reasonable answer which also makes good business sense which is importance to the continued success of mongoose. Like he said if the niche rule seems well received than it will be put in a future publication that’s more to your liking.

 

[Sigtrygg]

If that was the case they wouldn’t be printing all the books they are, look at the Rift supplement the printed version was so popular they have just done another print run that’s a fact and is immutable.

And guess what, I will not be buying the new version because I have the old version. They did a new print run because they were running out of the first print run. They took the opportunity to update it a bit, and they even gave the updated pdf for free to anyone who already has it.

All your doing it giving us your opinion without anything but anecdotal evidence.

As are you, except you are presenting your opinion as if it has some authority, which it does not. It is not anecdotal evidence if it is your personal experience, I do not think that word means what you think it means.

 

[Sigtrygg]

No I never said that the majority of people would buy a book for 3 useful pages.

You have been arguing it for three pages now.

Even that 3 useful pages is wrong since most people don’t buy books just to get three pages of new ship tech they buy it for its entirety the three pages are just a part of that.

Which is my argument.

As for wrong meaning no it was a wrong spelling which I will admit to the word I was meaning was anecdotal which does describe you argument.

Personal experience is not anecdotal, if you were to use my argument as evidence that would be anecdotal. Like I said, you may need to check what the word means as you said to me a page or so ago.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Any changes would be extremely small and not rules-based.

I was just wondering if anything had been streamlined for the starter editions...

Unlikely. It is an obvious date, and it was discussed, but doing an Update book just because of an anniversary... does not really sit right with me.

That is to your credit, I really respect your company's polices

An Update Core Rulebook will come out when it is needed, and not before. Plus, work would have to start next year, so really not that far off.

An anniversary cover, however... that might be a thing. We'll have to see how the print runs fall.

A new deluxe edition perhaps....

Slightly Longer Answer: This might tie into something else that is being tinkered with, along the lines of a digital tools set for Traveller. However, that is a project that is somewhat ballooning, and it has many questions that at the moment we do not have good answers for (not least being do we want to blow six figures on something that a good portion of which would not be charged for to users - I mean, it would be seriously cool, but...).

How about working with the fan produced stuff already available? A bit of polish and official endorsement.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Alexa, what's a hilarious straw man?

Not what you think it is obviously.

Tytalan is right: a games publishing company (small market, tight margins) that wants to survive cannot dedicate part of an FTE to maintaining a bonus PDF that gives away rules from multiple books just becuse a hardcore forum poster with a frequently- and volubly-stated ambiguous relationship to them says he won't buy what they know many others (like me) absolutely do buy.

I'm not asking them to, I am on record as stating I want to buy the compiled updates. My proposal is for permision for a fan produced file, Mongoose could then host the link, much like they do with the wiki and TravellerMap.

It's solipsistic to think that just because you're only interested in the three pages of crunch that people like me (and the thousands of others who undeniably buy these sourcebooks) don't exist. We do, and as Tytalan has patiently said several times: the growth in both Mongoose's product line and (apparently) income demonstrate that in empirical terms.

You buy £40 books to access 3 pages and never use the rest? You must have a lot of money.
Or do you buy the books that you find useful if only to read? In which case you are finding the whole book useful since you are reading them for enjoyment.

I personally will not buy another sector book of a sector that has been done to death unless there is a lot of new stuff in it, as others have also said. So that's not anecdotal, it is just a limited sample size.

MgT Sword Words - not interested, Spinward Marches and its surrounds - not interested, Solomani Rim - not interested.

A sector book for the Solomani sectors that have so far never been detailed - yes please. If this was to include the aforementioned Solomani Rim sector I would still buy it because there is a lot of new material.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Mat gave you a very reasonable answer which also makes good business sense which is importance to the continued success of mongoose. Like he said if the niche rule seems well received than it will be put in a future publication that’s more to your liking.

He said that pages ago to my original request, and I said I would buy it.

 

[Sigtrygg]

New request - I think this has been brought up a few times before but I will repeat it in light of the release of the Singularity book to backers.

Can kickstarter reward pdfs be released via the Mongoose Store for those of us with Mongoose Store accounts?

 

[Endie]

Not what you think it is obviously.

I'm not asking them to, I am on record as stating I want to buy the compiled updates. My proposal is for permision for a fan produced file, Mongoose could then host the link, much like they do with the wiki and TravellerMap.

You buy £40 books to access 3 pages and never use the rest? You must have a lot of money.
Or do you buy the books that you find useful if only to read? In which case you are finding the whole book useful since you are reading them for enjoyment.

I personally will not buy another sector book of a sector that has been done to death unless there is a lot of new stuff in it, as others have also said. So that's not anecdotal, it is just a limited sample size.

MgT Sword Words - not interested, Spinward Marches and its surrounds - not interested, Solomani Rim - not interested.

A sector book for the Solomani sectors that have so far never been detailed - yes please. If this was to include the aforementioned Solomani Rim sector I would still buy it because there is a lot of new material.

Well done adding an ad hominem to your early logical fallacy of straw man.

And like thousands of others (say the sales!) I like a book that has crunch and background, yes, and will pay for it.

As someone who apparently buys books that are for a shipbuilder who doesn't use spreadsheets you're frankly a niche of a niche. That's a market segment that can be freely ignored by producers, because while it's probably a larger market in Trav than most places, it's still going to be miniscule.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Unlikely. It is an obvious date, and it was discussed, but doing an Update book just because of an anniversary... does not really sit right with me. An Update Core Rulebook will come out when it is needed, and not before. Plus, work would have to start next year, so really not that far off.

An anniversary cover, however... that might be a thing. We'll have to see how the print runs fall.

Limited Edition Anniversary Slipcase with the CRB, Robots, and the new Vehicles' book? Not sure if anyone would like that, but it would be cool.

 

[MasterGwydion]

My point and @Sigtrygg's are similar but different. I just don't believe that you should have ship construction rules outside of the ship construction book.

 

[Vormaerin]

Are you just deliberately misconstruing his argument? He is, quite correctly, stating that it isn't worthwhile to buy books on topics he's not interested in just because there's a paragraph of new rules in it. Which, btw, Matt has agreed with.

The only discussion is what is the appropriate format for releasing these orphan rules to more general access. It seems likely that a rules compendium is the path Mongoose is going to take, which is fine. But it would be nice is there was something that doesn't take years to accumulate enough material to justify.

Spreadsheets are nice and all, but they aren't the same as having the rules. Matt can step in and correct me if Traveller's an exception, but it's a pretty well known trend in the industry that rulebooks outsell sourcebooks which outsell adventures. So rules that are not in the rulebooks are pretty much guaranteed to not be known by a fair share of the player base.

The forum users are certainly far more likely to be high spenders so it may seem like its really common to buy everything, but I would not expect that to be remotely the norm. It isn't in gaming in general.

 

[Terry Mixon]

New request - I think this has been brought up a few times before but I will repeat it in light of the release of the Singularity book to backers.

Can kickstarter reward pdfs be released via the Mongoose Store for those of us with Mongoose Store accounts?

Please. I already bought pdfs from previous campaigns (some) just to have them all in the same place. Help a fellow out.

 

[Terry Mixon]

My point and @Sigtrygg's are similar but different. I just don't believe that you should have ship construction rules outside of the ship construction book.

I don’t care where they get published so long as there is a compendium to have them all in one place as well. Even as a completionist, finding things is hard even though I have it.

A Master Index would be helpful, too. Cough cough.

 

[boggo2300]

I don’t care where they get published so long as there is a compendium to have them all in one place as well.

I'd go so far as to suggest the Compendium, High Guard Companion? whatever, have a regularly updated PDF so you don't need to scramble through half-a-dozen books to get all the rules. I mean every book published with new rules is already going to be in pretty much the right format, only needs to be added to the Compendium book and bump the PDF, that would make things SO much easier

 

[Terry Mixon]

I'd go so far as to suggest the Compendium, High Guard Companion? whatever, have a regularly updated PDF so you don't need to scramble through half-a-dozen books to get all the rules. I mean every book published with new rules is already going to be in pretty much the right format, only needs to be added to the Compendium book and bump the PDF, that would make things SO much easier

Exactly.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Can kickstarter reward pdfs be released via the Mongoose Store for those of us with Mongoose Store accounts?

Automatically, no - we do not have the technology. On a case-by-case basis, we can do this. Please do not all flood sales with requests

 

[Terry Mixon]

Automatically, no - we do not have the technology. On a case-by-case basis, we can do this. Please do not all flood sales with requests

We would NEVER do this.