Travellers Needed - The Future of Traveller

[Galadrion]

As for you not being in the minority that’s antidotal (look up the word since you’ve showed you don’t know the definition)...

Perhaps YOU should look the word up, since you are (per the dictionary) using the wrong word according to the context you use. "Antidotal" is the adjective form of "antidote", so "antidotal" means "pertaining to a counteragent". "Anecdotal" (the word which context would indicate you intended) means a reference to personal experience, usually as a specific example being generalized.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I think he meant anecdote, I was being pedantic picking him up for it because of the churlish nature of the discussion.

An anecdote is an experience described as a narrative, this was not what I was doing. It was/is an expression of logical reasoning about value versus cost.

 

[tytalan]

Personal experience is not anecdotal, if you were to use my argument as evidence that would be anecdotal. Like I said, you may need to check what the word means as you said to me a page or so ago.

By definition that’s exactly anecdotal evidence
“ Anecdotal evidence refers to information, often in the form of a short, personal story or account, based on individual experiences rather than reliable research or statistics. It is subjective and may not be representative of broader patterns or general truths, making it less reliable than scientific evidence”

While my evidence is supported by the growth of the IP and is not anecdotal.

 

[tytalan]

You buy £40 books to access 3 pages and never use the rest? You must have a lot of money.
Or do you buy the books that you find useful if only to read? In which case you are finding the whole book useful since you are reading them for enjoyment.

Again with the strawman argument no one has ever said they buy a book for only three pages that’s your claim and is disingenuous. Your three pages are part of the whole and if you don’t want the whole don’t buy it. Mat already said if these very specific techs turn out to have a broader audience than they will be put in a future publication that’s deals with these as a whole.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I am not narrating an experience, I am stating a matter of fact, that is not anecdotal. learn the meaning of words.

Tell you what here is much more information on it:

My statement is a general principle about decision-making, it’s an expression of logical reasoning about value versus cost.

You are calling it an anecdote to dismiss the point as purely subjective, so lets' look at it in different ways:

• it’s a rational stance on purchasing decisions. If I only need three pages, paying £40 for the entire book is objectively inefficient.
• it’s not a personal story - it’s an economic principle. Most sane people weigh cost against utility when deciding whether to buy something.
• this is basic consumer behavior, no one pays full price for something when only a tiny portion is relevant

 

[tytalan]

Perhaps YOU should look the word up, since you are (per the dictionary) using the wrong word according to the context you use. "Antidotal" is the adjective form of "antidote", so "antidotal" means "pertaining to a counteragent". "Anecdotal" (the word which context would indicate you intended) means a reference to personal experience, usually as a specific example being generalized.

And I stated that I had misspelled the word. This is the definition of the word I was referring to which is exactly what Sigtrygg argument is entirely based on“ Anecdotal evidence refers to information, often in the form of a short, personal story or account, based on individual experiences rather than reliable research or statistics. It is subjective and may not be representative of broader patterns or general truths, making it less reliable than scientific evidence”

 

[Sigtrygg]

Again with the strawman argument

You haven;t a clue what that means so don't try and use it.

no one has ever said they buy a book for only three pages that’s your claim and is disingenuous

You are repeatedly claiming people do, you have claimed it over and over again. I don;t think you even know what you are arguing about at this point, as you are re-writing your position with every post.

Your three pages are part of the whole and if you don’t want the whole don’t buy it.

Which is what I have been saying and you are arguing people do just that.

Mat already said if these very specific techs turn out to have a broader audience than they will be put in a future publication that’s deals with these as a whole.

And I already said I would buy the compendium, but many people have since said they would like an interim way of accessing the new material.

I am at a loss as to why you want to keep this discussion going since:
you don't know what anecdote means
you don't know what strawman arguments are
you change your position and don't remember your own arguments.

Ok, you win, you are right, about everything, happy now?

 

[Sigtrygg]

And I stated that I had misspelled the word. This is the definition of the word I was referring to which is exactly what Sigtrygg argument is entirely based on“

No it isn't
an anecdote is a narrative construct, I am stating a fact.

Anecdotal evidence refers to information, often in the form of a short, personal story or account, based on individual experiences rather than reliable research or statistics. It is subjective and may not be representative of broader patterns or general truths, making it less reliable than scientific evidence

Subjective, that is the key. What I am stating is not subjective, it is a statement of fact, I am not telling you a story I am flat out stating I will not buy a book that only has 3 pages that are useful to me, that is not an anecdote, it is a statement off fact.

I take it back, you don't win the interwebs.

 

[tytalan]

it’s a rational stance on purchasing decisions. If I only need three pages, paying £40 for the entire book is objectively inefficient.

Counterpoint: no one buys a book for only one thing if all you want it the three ship pages your in the minority

it’s not a personal story - it’s an economic principle. Most sane people weigh cost against utility when deciding whether to buy something.

Counterpoint: yes most people weigh cost vs utility but most people are concerned with the whole not a small percentage of the produce.

this is basic consumer behavior, no one pays full price for something when only a tiny portion is relevant

True but only a very small percentage of the audience are only concerned with a tiny group of rules that are specific to a certain source book.

You claim not to be making a anecdotal argument but the core of your argument is that you personally find lacking these few very situational rules is harming your gaming experience otherwise you wouldn’t worry about them and play without them. You’re trying very hard to make your personal experience into something that it’s not. No one is forcing you to buy these books but it’s obvious from the growth of the game that others find more interesting things in these book than just your three pages. Live without them until mongoose put those that are more popular in a tech sourcebook.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Counterpoint: no one buys a book for only one thing if all you want it the three ship pages your in the minority

But you keep claiming people do.
I have been arguing all along that buying a book for 3 pages is something I would not do, and there are several people that have since agredd with me.

Counterpoint: yes most people weigh cost vs utility but most people are concerned with the whole not a small percentage of the produce.

And as I have repeatedly said, if I don't want the rest of the book, not even for reading entertainment then I will not buy it, while you argued that people do. You are now restating my points and agreeing with them.

True but only a very small percentage of the audience are only concerned with a tiny group of rules that are specific to a certain source book.

Which is why they are unlikely to buy the book, as several people have now said.

You claim not to be making a anecdotal argument but the core of your argument is that you personally find lacking these few very situational rules is harming your gaming experience otherwise you wouldn’t worry about them and play without them.

I have never said that. I am more than capable of making up my own rules or using my extensive collection of Traveller and other rpgs to make stuff up for my games. What is not possible is for people on these forums to discuss ship designs that include elements taken from niche sources not everyone has access to, that is not an anecdote it is a fact...

You’re trying very hard to make your personal experience into something that it’s not.

It is not an experience, it is a statement of economic fact.

No one is forcing you to buy these books

I never said anyone was doing so

but it’s obvious from the growth of the game that others find more interesting things in these book than just your three pages.

Strawman argument, I am not discussing the growth of the game and it is not relevant to the economics of purchasing a book I have little use for.

Live without them until mongoose put those that are more popular in a tech sourcebook.

What a snidely comment to end on.

 

[tytalan]

Sigtrygg your entire argument is based on the assumption that the only thing the majority of people that buy Traveller books is for the ship building rules in them this is the anecdotal part of your argument because that is obviously not the case. This is especially true since the books in question or setting book which I believe you have stated in the past that you don’t use the Charted Space setting. We have repeatedly stated that this is not the case and Matt has stated that these “rules” are generally very situational and specific to the greater whole of the product they are in, which makes your three pages argument invalid. He’s also said that those rules that have a larger influence will be put in a future product. You have your answer and it’s a very reasonable answer.

 

[ross]

If that was the case they wouldn’t be printing all the books they are, look at the Rift supplement the printed version was so popular they have just done another print run that’s a fact and is immutable. All your doing it giving us your opinion without anything but anecdotal evidence.

Multiple print runs are a good thing, but that doesn't mean that print books always outsell PDFs, nor does it mean that each print run was large enough to fulfill the previous demand. Many publishers print relatively small print runs because of capital issues. If you are printing 50,000 copies, it's vastly different than if you're printing 5,000 or even 10,000 copies. Again, I guess we're going to disagree, and that's fine.

 

[Arkathan]

I had shelves full of RPG books.
The wife decided they were clutter.
Now my hard drive and a backup are full of pdf's.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Sigtrygg your entire argument is based on the assumption that the only thing the majority of people that buy Traveller books is for the ship building rules

No, it isn't. I have never said that, nor have I ever claimed that. That is completely your invention.

in them this is the anecdotal part of your argument because that is obviously not the case.

Again, you do not know what the word means. I am not narrating a story, I am stating a fact, I will not pay £40 for a book that only contains 3 pages of material of any use to me. That is not an anecdote, it is a statement of fact.

This is especially true since the books in question or setting book which I believe you have stated in the past that you don’t use the Charted Space setting.

I don't use the Charted Space setting as Mongoose presents it. I do have a proto-Third Imperium, and I have a game on the go at the moment using the Deepnight bixed set. I have backed every Mongoose Kickstarter, I have bought many of their setting books that I though would be interesting reads. But I have not bought any of the Spinward Marches stuff (apart for the FFW books, which I have the full set so far). I am incredibly impressed with Singiularity.

We have repeatedly stated that this is not the case and Matt has stated that these “rules” are generally very situational and specific to the greater whole of the product they are in, which makes your three pages argument invalid.

No it doesn't.

He’s also said that those rules that have a larger influence will be put in a future product. You have your answer and it’s a very reasonable answer.

I asked for it, he said it was coming, I said yey and I would buy it. Why are you prolonging this pointless discussion?

 

[MasterGwydion]

Sigtrygg your entire argument is based on the assumption that the only thing the majority of people that buy Traveller books is for the ship building rules in them this is the anecdotal part of your argument because that is obviously not the case. This is especially true since the books in question or setting book which I believe you have stated in the past that you don’t use the Charted Space setting. We have repeatedly stated that this is not the case and Matt has stated that these “rules” are generally very situational and specific to the greater whole of the product they are in, which makes your three pages argument invalid. He’s also said that those rules that have a larger influence will be put in a future product. You have your answer and it’s a very reasonable answer.

The one page of TL-16 ship components that exists in Behind the Claw is not Charted Space specific. They are not situational. Superior Sensors or Advanced Sensors? One is in High Guard. The other is in Behind the Claw. None of the rules-material on that page is situational, nor specific to that setting book.

So here is a real out of the book example. In the book they describe it as from Vincennes, but it is not Vincennes-specific. They are general components for spaceships, such as Computers and Sensors and such. I suppose you could consider it situational, in the sense that if you don't play Traveller, you won't find a situation where you'd need that information.

 

[Condottiere]

I had shelves full of RPG books.
The wife decided they were clutter.
Now my hard drive and a backup are full of pdf's.

sceptical spouse
shelved sagas
digitalized clutter

 

[Arkathan]

sceptical spouse
shelved sagas
digitalized clutter

She can't SEE what's on my hard drive.
What she doesn't see doesn't hurt me.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[FreeTrav]

What I would like to see henceforth - but don't know if it's economically viable from Mongoose's point of view:

1. A "harder" separation of rules from setting. A setting book should, IMO, not contain any new rules, and a rulebook should not discuss setting-related matters. Adventures and Career books might be somewhere that "fuzzes the line" a little - but only as little as possible.
2. Lower pricing on PDFs vs paper. I don't know exactly how much it costs to print, but charging a PDF buyer for printing costs seems a little unfair. Admittedly, if I pay the cost for paper, I generally can get the PDF at no additional charge (Bits and Mortar - and it would be nice if this could integrate with my DTRPG account, so that a B&M PDF shows up in my DTRPG account) - but the reverse is not true. Baen Books, a publisher of fantasy and SF (and more known for the latter), sets the e-book price based on what the currently-available print edition is - not on the price, but on the format: if Baen releases Eye of Argon in hardbound, their e-book price would be $9.99; if in trade paperbound, the e-book would be $7.99, and if in mass-market paperbound, the e-book is $6.99. I don't necessarily expect that kind of sizeable discount for gaming materials, but if a $50 print product has an effective cost of printing of $5 per copy, I don't consider more than $45 for the PDF (and no printed edition) to be fair. I don't begrudge a content creator legitimate profit from their work - which is why I don't expect a $50 rulebook to be sold for $10 in PDF; all of the same editing and graphic design work has to go into the PDF as into the print edition - but I question whether profit derived from attributing printing costs to the PDF product should be considered "legitimate".

 

[boggo2300]

What I would like to see henceforth - but don't know if it's economically viable from Mongoose's point of view:

1. A "harder" separation of rules from setting. A setting book should, IMO, not contain any new rules, and a rulebook should not discuss setting-related matters. Adventures and Career books might be somewhere that "fuzzes the line" a little - but only as little as possible.
2. Lower pricing on PDFs vs paper. I don't know exactly how much it costs to print, but charging a PDF buyer for printing costs seems a little unfair. Admittedly, if I pay the cost for paper, I generally can get the PDF at no additional charge (Bits and Mortar - and it would be nice if this could integrate with my DTRPG account, so that a B&M PDF shows up in my DTRPG account) - but the reverse is not true. Baen Books, a publisher of fantasy and SF (and more known for the latter), sets the e-book price based on what the currently-available print edition is - not on the price, but on the format: if Baen releases Eye of Argon in hardbound, their e-book price would be $9.99; if in trade paperbound, the e-book would be $7.99, and if in mass-market paperbound, the e-book is $6.99. I don't necessarily expect that kind of sizeable discount for gaming materials, but if a $50 print product has an effective cost of printing of $5 per copy, I don't consider more than $45 for the PDF (and no printed edition) to be fair. I don't begrudge a content creator legitimate profit from their work - which is why I don't expect a $50 rulebook to be sold for $10 in PDF; all of the same editing and graphic design work has to go into the PDF as into the print edition - but I question whether profit derived from attributing printing costs to the PDF product should be considered "legitimate".

Definitely agree with 1
I'd like 2, but I don't know thats feasible with the continues existence of Mongoose.