Traveller, TAS, and AI

[Endie]

That would be mis-selling in the UK, misrepresentation in most legal systems or at the very least false advertising.

If a particular legal system is not capable of (or willing to) enforce descriptive standards in trade (like say China) that then it won't be enforcing any other labelling regulation either and the notion of "marking" art as AI and consumer choice is foiled.

If you cannot enforce labelling of AI art, then it seems unlikely you would be able to ban it either. It will always exist, the genie is out of the bottle. Your best plan is to educate a discerning customer base and you cannot really do that without examples of the thing you are trying to wean them off.

All this presuming you even have the moral right to cancel another's creative efforts. Why stop at AI, "I" don't like abstract art as it detracts from the "proper stuff" we should ban that too. Oh an Jazz as well, bloody hipsters. Frankly Picasso was a bit suspect, so maybe we should include surrealism... etc.

This is the subtleist Godwinning I have seen in ages. Nice work!

 

[Arkathan]

Yep. But you don't get to dictate who is the real fool. Only the market decides that.

False. Any sane person can see the fool. And then laugh or shake their heads as the huckster makes off with a pile of cash for painting eyes on rocks found on a gravel road, or nowadays a bag of river rock.

The AI model follows the China model. Undercut the competition at a loss until there is no competition, and then dictate socio-political policies to consumers.

 

[MarcusIII]

False.

No, true

 

[Arkathan]

All this presuming you even have the moral right to cancel another's creative efforts. Why stop at AI, "I" don't like abstract art as it detracts from the "proper stuff" we should ban that too. Oh an Jazz as well, bloody hipsters. Frankly Picasso was a bit suspect, so maybe we should include surrealism... etc.

The difference being all of those except AI requires someone to do something other than telling a computer to make an image or video for them.

 

[Arkathan]

No, true

I am sorry that you are unable to identify foolish people by the choices they make.
In my previous line of work, not identifying people who are stuck on stupid would have been hazardous to my health and the wellbeing of others.

 

[Endie]

The difference being all of those except AI requires someone to do something other than telling a computer to make an image or video for them.

He was making a subtle, ironic historical allusion. A bloody good one, too.

 

[Arkathan]

He was making a subtle, ironic historical allusion. A bloody good one, too.

I am aware of the allusion. The difference is that they did not have something else doing the work for them and claiming it as their own work.
And those who did have others doing their work got exposed and discredited.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

I am aware of the allusion. The difference is that they did not have something else doing the work for them and claiming it as their own work.
And those who did have others doing their work got exposed and discredited.

I seem to recall that some of the "Great Masters" had apprentices and that if a apprentice did a work of high enough quality the Master would sign it making it more valuable. Some have since been identified as being done by such apprentices who did themselves later become masters.

 

[Arkathan]

I seem to recall that some of the "Great Masters" had apprentices and that if a apprentice did a work of high enough quality the Master would sign it making it more valuable. Some have since been identified as being done by such apprentices who did themselves later become masters.

Yes, but the Great Masters were not into abstract, which the comment addressed.

 

[swordtart]

The difference being all of those except AI requires someone to do something other than telling a computer to make an image or video for them.

How do you feel about fractal art?
Or the work (and words) of Frieder Nak?
Or sterograms?
Looks like abstract art to me.
What did they do other than type a few formula into a computer and filter the unattractive output.

 

[Arkathan]

How do you feel about fractal art?

It is pretty, because it simulates nature... but I wouldn't pay for it.
Much better when it is painted, like Escher, or photographed under magnification.

 

[phavoc]

I think the question remains up in the air - will AI put real artists out of business? Probably not because it is derivative art rather than original. At some point it will fall back in on itself to reference itself and become even schlockier.

Will it have a short-term impact as companies jump on the save a pfennig bandwagon? Absolutely! It's the same reason why we saw companies jump at the chance to offshore development work 20 years ago. Why? Because most companies are run by people who used to be COO's or CFO's and all they care about are the numbers on the bottom line. They didn't have to understand that 4 developers offshore were priced the same as the 1 onshore, but that the output was not equivalent. Things have changed somewhat (both on quality and costs), but at the end of the day it's all about the bottom line.

People will (I hope) eventually tire of seeing the same drawings recycled over and over and put their purchasing dollars back into things that are more original rather than derivative.

One irony here, at least for this particular discussion, is that that we are literally talking about a game that is more or less a derivative of the same game that was published back in the 70s that has been recycled over and over again. And I own (nearly) all the versions of it. So I suppose there is that to consider.

 

[Arkathan]

One irony here, at least for this particular discussion, is that that we are literally talking about a game that is more or less a derivative of the same game that was published back in the 70s that has been recycled over and over again. And I own (nearly) all the versions of it. So I suppose there is that to consider.

Maintained by responsible stewards as opposed to sacked by pirates. (Although certain versions may leave room for debate on that front)

 

[Endie]

I am aware of the allusion. The difference is that they did not have something else doing the work for them and claiming it as their own work.
And those who did have others doing their work got exposed and discredited.

Heh that is not the subtle burn wrapped in an allusion hidden in his comment. It's a historical joke. And absolutely nothing to do with the Great Masters.

 

[swordtart]

I think the question remains up in the air - will AI put real artists out of business? Probably not because it is derivative art rather than original. At some point it will fall back in on itself to reference itself and become even schlockier.

Will it have a short-term impact as companies jump on the save a pfennig bandwagon? Absolutely! It's the same reason why we saw companies jump at the chance to offshore development work 20 years ago. Why? Because most companies are run by people who used to be COO's or CFO's and all they care about are the numbers on the bottom line. They didn't have to understand that 4 developers offshore were priced the same as the 1 onshore, but that the output was not equivalent. Things have changed somewhat (both on quality and costs), but at the end of the day it's all about the bottom line.

People will (I hope) eventually tire of seeing the same drawings recycled over and over and put their purchasing dollars back into things that are more original rather than derivative.

One irony here, at least for this particular discussion, is that that we are literally talking about a game that is more or less a derivative of the same game that was published back in the 70s that has been recycled over and over again. And I own (nearly) all the versions of it. So I suppose there is that to consider.

Further irony is that in many iterations the game itself is largely procedural with the universe literally being built up from random tables and most Referees just recycle plots from TV, films and books in one form or another.

 

[Vormaerin]

I think the fact that these image generators are massively subsidized by bubble finance is a bigger reason to consider whether they are viable once consumers have to actually pay the costs of using them. Currently, they don't.

 

[MarcusIII]

Further irony is that in many iterations the game itself is largely procedural with the universe literally being built up from random tables and most Referees just recycle plots from TV, films and books in one form or another.

This is SO true. I don't buy games for the artwork. Otherwise I would not have purchased Traveller when it first came out. Or, D&D or, Arduin, or T&T, or, or, or...

 

[swordtart]

It is pretty, because it simulates nature... but I wouldn't pay for it.
Much better when it is painted, like Escher, or photographed under magnification.

Art is but an imitation of nature.

 

[swordtart]

I think the fact that these image generators are massively subsidized by bubble finance is a bigger reason to consider whether they are viable once consumers have to actually pay the costs of using them. Currently, they don't.

I'd rather focus on the adverse environmental impact of generative AI. But the plebs do so love their baby with dog videos.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The defence being that the human used the AI as a TOOL for creating the art, without the human there would have been none and therefore it qualifies as human created. The TOOL being AI they will say is no different than a paint brush, a word processor or hammer and chisel for creating art.

They might win on that grounds. Especially if they are wealthy.

This was my point exactly.