Traveller: Mirror Universe

[Tom Kalbfus]

You're saying the "Uranium project" never happened!
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/military/nazis-and-the-bomb.html

In Mirror World, they in fact do put more effort, maybe discovering the process the US experimented with, and develop the weapon. V-2s with nuclear tips crack the sanctity of
Britain then move on Russia ending the war before the US defeats them and later Japan. At this point we assume central and south american countries openly side with the axis along with internal pro-axis within the US isolating the North America. War over.

When they reach the stars, do they take over in the form of the Eternal Reich or are they contained as the variant of the Solomani? Either way, there are going to be either a lot of slave races or extinct species.

Slavery is more profitable than extermination and ultimately the Emperors don't care about what nation and what people they rule, so long as they have power over them. I think Hitler would have lived out his natural life and then died, and then there would be jockeying for power. if Himmler took over then its likely that the war against the Jews would continue for some time after that, if someone else did, then the chances are that Hitler's prejudice would die with him, other emperors wouldn't necessarily care about the same things Hitler did, but they would like to maximize their power. My guess is the Empire would lose its Nazi identity over the next 100 years either because they cease to care about the Master Race, or they run out of Jews to kill, you might get a Nazi "Kruschev" or "Gorbachev". The late Roman Empire was very different from the Early Roman Empire, so out of tradition, an Empire that was a successor to the Third Reich might have a few Swastikas on their starships, but all they would really care about it maintaining their power, and anything that they see s threatening their power or their Empire, they'll crush!

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

I've been meaning to ask. How do you post pictures that you created on your own computer? How do you make an http out of a bitmap or a jpg? I have a picture that I want to post.

 

[AndrewW]

I've been meaning to ask. How do you post pictures that you created on your own computer? How do you make an http out of a bitmap or a jpg? I have a picture that I want to post.

Just need the image available somewhere online then you can link to it.

Jpeg's are bitmaps... But .BMP format wouldn't be a good choice for web based. PNG or JPG work well as most browsers support those. GIF as well, though limited to 256 colors.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

You're saying the "Uranium project" never happened!
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/military/nazis-and-the-bomb.html

In Mirror World, they in fact do put more effort, maybe discovering the process the US experimented with, and develop the weapon. V-2s with nuclear tips crack the sanctity of
Britain then move on Russia ending the war before the US defeats them and later Japan. At this point we assume central and south american countries openly side with the axis along with internal pro-axis within the US isolating the North America. War over.

When they reach the stars, do they take over in the form of the Eternal Reich or are they contained as the variant of the Solomani? Either way, there are going to be either a lot of slave races or extinct species.

Slavery is more profitable than extermination and ultimately the Emperors don't care about what nation and what people they rule, so long as they have power over them. I think Hitler would have lived out his natural life and then died, and then there would be jockeying for power. if Himmler took over then its likely that the war against the Jews would continue for some time after that, if someone else did, then the chances are that Hitler's prejudice would die with him, other emperors wouldn't necessarily care about the same things Hitler did, but they would like to maximize their power. My guess is the Empire would lose its Nazi identity over the next 100 years either because they cease to care about the Master Race, or they run out of Jews to kill, you might get a Nazi "Kruschev" or "Gorbachev". The late Roman Empire was very different from the Early Roman Empire, so out of tradition, an Empire that was a successor to the Third Reich might have a few Swastikas on their starships, but all they would really care about it maintaining their power, and anything that they see s threatening their power or their Empire, they'll crush!

Sorry but "Untermenschen" to the Nazis was EVERYBODY not considered an "Aryan". Not restricted to Jews but also included all Slavic races and (despite their pact with Japan) all Asian races as well. So there where a few billion more people to kill. And it wasn't "Hitler" alone, Goebels and Himmler where just as brain damaged.

The Romans had their superiority complex too, but that faded with time, as further Emperors became less and less Roman. Many of the late Roman Emperors were what the earlier Romans would consider "Barbarians". Also the main center of the Roman Empire moved from Rome to Constantinople, and they mainly spoke Greek their instead of Latin, then after that there was a German Nation called the Holy Roman Empire, and several times it tried to conquer Rome to gain some legitimacy as a successor to the late Roman Empire. I suspect the Nazi definition of "Aryan" would tend to expand over time, just as the Roman definition of "Roman" expanded over time as well, the Emperors realized that the people they ruled were a source of power, they paid taxes which granted the Emperor wealth. The Third Reich didn't last very long as Empires go, they didn't have to adapt strategies to maximize the duration of the existence. Anyway if they ran out of Jews a major part of their ideology would go down the drain, because how can you hate someone that no longer exists?

I never understand why anyone wants those murderous pigs as the base for an empire. As target practice and for "Inglorious Basterds" style scenarios they have their uses. But aside from that we should be happy that the world got rid of them.

You need a villain to drive the plot. The Star Wars Empire was based in part on the Third Reich and in part on the Roman Empire, and a bit of the Japanese Empire as well judging from their Uniforms. The Imperium is an Empire, usually an Empire is either expanding or contracting, now an Empire can either be civilized or otherwise. the Traveller Imperium is a civilized Empire, semi-modeled in part after the British Empire to some degree as it existed in the 18th and 19th centuries. But what about the road not travelled, what if it was a thuggish Empire always waging war on its neighbors and oppressing its own subjects? That is what a Mirror Universe is about The Mirror Universe of the Star War Rebellion Era would resemble something like Classic Traveller with Star Destroyers doing exploration and first contact scenarios.

Also the whole point of having an Evil Empire is to have something for player characters to rebel against. If the players want to play Rebels, they need some Evil Empire to make their cause worthwhile, don't you think?

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

The British/French/German/<Add moderate 19th/early 20th century empire> where all good enough to rebel against. Has been done numerous times, mostly without success. Even Rome in his better times (and emperors) had rebellion.

So no, one does not need to step that low. Actually a decend foe is far more interesting to rebel against than the braindead, goosestepping Nazi hordes since a decend foe has elements like mercy, consience, may even cooperate on occassions etc. So generally the better plot device.

Since I am a german I sadly met Nazis that 40 years AFTER Hitler made the best decision in his life still voted for the NPD and still thought the PoS was "good for germany". So Nazis are just good for "stupid stormtroopers" and "unimaginative (Grand)Moffs" not for smart, challenging enemies. And if I want a First Person Shooter - I play a computer game.

Just because someone is evil doesn't mean he is not smart. How about Grand Admiral Thrawn, he was a smart character in the expanded Star Wars Universe, the best description of him I have is that of a blue-skinned evil Sherlock Holmes with an uncanny ability to deduce what his enemies were up to, that doesn't sound like a Thuggish stormtrooper to me. As for those German initials, (NPD and PoS) I'm not sure what they stand for in English.

Anyway I think bad guys should be bad, that makes them worth while to fight. One could have a rebellion with the standard Traveller campaigns. Most rebellions in those cases are about somebody who thinks he should be in charge and is not, plus there is the fact that the rebels aren't always the good guys. At one point Adolf Hitler was a rebel during the Bavarian Putch, for instance, Lenin was a rebel too. In the Third Imperium a rebel has an equal chance of either being better or worse that what he is rebelling against, against an evil empire, just about anything or anyone would be better that who is in power at the moment.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Sorry but read up on the Bierhall Uprising, who did it, what was it's target. You'll find that Hitler was no "Rebel", that was just another Nazi thing. Sadly the Bavarian policeman where lousy shots.

It appears Hitler got a light sentence for "High Treason", 5 years in prison and only 8 months served. There were people who died in that putsch, 8 months was rather light for a crime that resulted in some people's deaths, those judges should have been impeached!

As I said, being a Rebel is not always a good thing Lenin was a Rebel too. A rebel is someone who wants to overthrow the existing order and replace it with something else, that something else isn't necessarily good or less bad that what they want to replace. During the Nazi regime, a lot of the rebels were communists, there were also democrats, they cooperated because the Nazis forced them too. Since neither rebel group was close to implementing their programs, they were forced to cooperate and pool their resources to fight the Nazis. The Communist of course were supported by Stalin and became the nucleus of the East German Government, the democrats rose to prominence in the West German government.

With an evil empire the rebels get a chance to be more heroic in fighting it. If the Empire isn't so bad, the good guys have less compelling reason to fight against it, those that do are more like Lenin, they want power for themselves, the current regime doesn't give them enough power, so they try to replace it with one that does as in the Russian Revolution or the "Nazi Revolution". The Weimar Republic wasn't evil or repressive, but Hitler sought to exploit the public's dissatisfaction to replace it with his own regime. It was a revolution because Hitler replaced the Weimar Republic with something radically different which was his dictatorship. Most good people do not want a revolution, they prefer to work within the system to achieve the change they desire, so only the most oppressive governments will force them to become rebels.

 

[Condottiere]

The most interesting stories are where the writer creates sympathetic antagonists: the Japanese tend to be very good at this, possibly because they don't see the world as entirely black and white.

In Western literature, you have Brian de Bois-Guilbert.

 

[lexx2503]

I have to agree that the best enemies/antagonists are the one with depth and times where you can sympathize with them. Or even better. Make it so there are no " good guys" so to speak. Where most factions are just as bad as the next. Make it grim, make it brutal if you are going to do a mirror universe.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

@Tom

I suggest reading a GOOD history book or five and one or two on the european/german system of elections (Unlike the US/GB we use a proportional system). Hitlers low sentence and early release where HIGHLY political since Weimar had a lot of internal problems with the right wing "anti repulic" elements

And the January 1933 "Machtergreifung" was not a revolution, it wasn't even violent. It was a democratic and fair election where the Nazis where the strongest party (again) while loosing seats compared to the last election (again). Since by tradition the leader of the strongest faction (Nazis: 33.1 percent) is named Reichskanzler by the Reichspräsident (senile old Hindenburg back than) and Hitler had been skipped twice (Hindenburg disliked him as a person, not the Nazi politics that where to complex for his aging brain anyway) this had been ignored and both SPD/Zentrum coalitions had failed.

And the very small german underground wasn't communists. Those where either in prison, dead or in foreign countries. It was a mix of upper middle class (i.e "White Rose"), Officers and some ordinary people from all walks of live that simply "ignored some laws" (Schindler is the most famous, other did it smaller scale). No violent opposition either except the Officers and those have their own problems (Read up on "What we will do once in power" - not the nice guys)

Most run of the mill dictators don't do the things Hitler did, most dictators don't start World Wars or build Death Camps. I tend to give anyone who wanted to overthrow Hitler he benefit of the doubt, because even if he was ruthless, chances are he would be less ruthless than Hitler, as he is almost as bad as they can possibly get.

And they didn't cooperate, on the contrary. IF they had done so (like during the Kapp Putsch) Hitler might have been stopped in 1933/34.

Oh and a "Rebel" is a "Terrorist" that has won, nothing else. One nice "alternate history" is one where Lenin rots away in Switzerland and Russia gets a constitutional monarchy under Kerensky (quite a likely outcome before the germans send a train).

To the contrary, George Washington was a rebel and never a terrorist, even though he won. Anyway, would you want to play a rebel that wanted to overthrow a parliamentary democracy with a constitutional figurehead monarch? I wouldn't want to play a character that wants to overthrow the government simply because he wants power. What fun is that?

 

[Golan2072]

Personally, I prefer to keep real-world politics, especially recent ones (and WWII is fairly recent), away from my RPG settings. Sure, a culture or polity might be inspired by this or that, but direct copies or thinly-veiled analogies tend to bore me. So leave the Space Nazis, Neo-Soviets and Yanks in Space (or even direct Space Romans) to where they belong - which is wargaming (and there are VERY good 15mm miniatures for these forces, and GW's 28mm WH40K also has armies VERY strongly inspired by each). Instead take whatever features and themes of historical politics you think is interesting, mix and match, and create interesting sci-fi polities.

Keep real-world cultural roots if you want, but also keep in mind that they'll evolve somewhere in the millennia of the far future.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

For a good example of an excellent "baddie" I'd recommend the 'Ramayana'. If it wasn't for his sin of pride (which inexorably causes his downfall) Ravana could easily have been the hero.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Personally, I prefer to keep real-world politics, especially recent ones (and WWII is fairly recent), away from my RPG settings. Sure, a culture or polity might be inspired by this or that, but direct copies or thinly-veiled analogies tend to bore me. So leave the Space Nazis, Neo-Soviets and Yanks in Space (or even direct Space Romans) to where they belong - which is wargaming (and there are VERY good 15mm miniatures for these forces, and GW's 28mm WH40K also has armies VERY strongly inspired by each). Instead take whatever features and themes of historical politics you think is interesting, mix and match, and create interesting sci-fi polities.

Keep real-world cultural roots if you want, but also keep in mind that they'll evolve somewhere in the millennia of the far future.

World War II was not recent, it was in the early part of the previous century, and most of the people involved in it are dead. I chose the Nazis for a very good reason, most people can agree that they were evil, and I don't want to get into a political discussion, which I would get into if I modeled the Evil Empire after the Soviet Union. There are a lot of people still that think the Soviets are the good guys. The Third Reich fits the bill because it was a relatively modern empire, yet is has been extinct for long enough and thoroughly discredited, which the Soviets have not been, such that most people can agree that they were evil, I don't know why they were evil, and to me that's not important, it is sufficient that they are evil and are worth fighting. Who else could I use? Genghis Khan? The Mongol Horde wasn't a modern empire. The Third Reich has enough things to make it similar to an interstellar empire, it has radio, it has modern ships, it has airplanes, now imagine the ships are space ships, and the airplanes are space fighters, imagine the guns are laser rifles, and imagine the secret weapons programs were more futuristic and you have your evil empire, it worked for George Lucas after all.

 

[dragoner]

World War II was not recent...

What they are telling you, politely, is that they find it offensive.

 

[Condottiere]

And then we have Orks, which by spelling alone, are in Space.

 

[sideranautae]

Sorry Tom but Washington WAS a terrorist just like say Ho Tschi Min (sp?) during the Indochina War.

Washington had women and children tied up and shot?

Are you TOTALLY insane or, just a troll?

 

[dragoner]

And then we have Orks, which by spelling alone, are in Space.

Or Scotland. :wink:

 

[sideranautae]

The methods used by some man under his command where at least as uncivilized in their times as Ho Chi Minhs where in the Indochine (1946-54) war.

Glad there is an ignore insane posters option.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Washingtons forces attacked the forces of the legal government and a government that was actually considered quite civilized. The methods used by some man under his command where at least as uncivilized in their times as Ho Chi Minhs where in the Indochine (1946-54) war. Look up "Swamp Fox" for a fine specimin. And quite a few of the battles and tactics used by Washington himself would at least be debatable by the standards of the 18th century.

You ever hear the expression, "You can judge a tree by its fruit"?
The "fruit" of the American Revolution was the United States of America; the Fruit of the Ho Chi Min Revolution was the People's "Republic" of Vietnam, it is not a real republic, it is just a label, so which place would you rather live? Hitler's regime was "legal" in the sense that his power was achieved through a legal process according to the constitution of he Weimar Republic of Germany, but I think Hitler's government ceased to be legitimate when it ceased to represent the German People, and lets be honest, if Hitler's government really was representative of the German People, that means the German People would then be responsible for whatever Hitler did as their "elected" representative, and I'm sure you wouldn't want that. George Washington's point and also Thomas Jefferson's and John Adams was that King George's government was not legitimate because the King was not elected by the people and did not represent the people, therefore the American Colonists had no obligation to pay taxes to an unelected non-representative. George Washington was a lot more civilized than Ho Chi Min, we had a successful Republic that didn't start any World Wars. I don't know why you want to talk about politics, when I'm only taking about a game setting, which your country invented with its history. The Star Wars Empire was modeled after the Third Reich, I'm sorry, but that is your history, and ever since a number of Hollywood Villains have been modeled after that man that your countrymen elected as it's Chancellor in 1932, that is your history, just as slavery belongs to mine, we got rid of it, and we got rid of the Hitler regime too, and the Germans have improved since then. Maybe you don't like the Third Reich being used that way, but I see it as a deterrent to all the future would be "Hitlers" in the world, and there are some. I want people to look up the word "Evil" in the dictionary and see a picture of Adolf Hitler, that is what he deserved at any rate. One is heroic when one fights evil.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

World War II was not recent...

What they are telling you, politely, is that they find it offensive.

Fighting evil is offensive, how so?

 

[dragoner]

World War II was not recent...

What they are telling you, politely, is that they find it offensive.

Fighting evil is offensive, how so?

Making light of the Nazis.