Traveller: Mirror Universe

[Tom Kalbfus]

The methods used by some man under his command where at least as uncivilized in their times as Ho Chi Minhs where in the Indochine (1946-54) war.

Glad there is an ignore insane posters option.

I agree. George Washington's actions were illegal under the laws of the then British Empire, but that does not make George Washington a terrorist. Maybe it is the fact that he is German, and he wants to make as if other countries are as guilty as his own. One is not guilty of his ancestors crimes any more that I am guilty of slavery, though some of my ancestors may have owned slaves, that wasn't my doing. "Somebody" shouldn't feel guilty for the Holocaust or World War II if he didn't take part in it, and he should try to project "German Guilt" on others either just to make himself feel better.

 

[sideranautae]

The methods used by some man under his command where at least as uncivilized in their times as Ho Chi Minhs where in the Indochine (1946-54) war.

Glad there is an ignore insane posters option.

I agree. George Washington's actions were illegal under the laws of the then British Empire, but that does not make George Washington a terrorist. Maybe it is the fact that he is German, and he wants to make as if other countries are as guilty as his own. One is not guilty of his ancestors crimes any more that I am guilty of slavery, though some of my ancestors may have owned slaves, that wasn't my doing. "Somebody" shouldn't feel guilty for the Holocaust or World War II if he didn't take part in it, and he should try to project "German Guilt" on others either just to make himself feel better.

It is sad. A person with access to an education thinks that Washington ordered the brutal murder & torture of civilians and had British military prisoners systematically tortured. The overall conduct by officers on both sides of that civil war (British & British Colonials) was exemplary.

I guess with socialized medicine they allow the clinically insane to roam the streets.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

What they are telling you, politely, is that they find it offensive.

Fighting evil is offensive, how so?

Making light of the Nazis.

Show me where I have made light of the Nazis other than to use them fictitiously, but then lots of authors have used them in fiction such as in
The Indiana Jones Movies
Hogan's Heroes
Then there is Star Wars
The Organization SPECTRE in the Early James Bond films
The Wonder Woman series in the 1970s
Captain America and Red Skull.

So in other words you say its offensive to use the Nazis in fiction, but it looks like I'm in good company. The important thing is we defeated the Nazis, and we can celebrate that fact by telling stories about them and about the heroism of those that fought them. The Germans caused two World Wars, that cost the world greatly, so at the very least we can use what they did as villainous story material. The Germans to this day are overshadowed by their two World Wars, particularly the second one, so if Germany wants to get out of that shadow, I suggest they do something greater than those two World Wars they caused, that way they can turn the page of history and get out from that shadow.

 

[dragoner]

...a victorious Third Reich... There would likely be no more Jews ...

:roll:

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Just being realistic. If the Third Reich was victorious, some ugly things would immediately follow, and over a period of thousands of years, what do you think would happen? So were talking about a setting that begins with a victorious Third Reich, seems like a logical beginning for Mirror Universe, that is the good buys did not win, and the bad guys are evil and they will do evil things. So throw some player characters into this Universe at about the same time as Classic Traveller but in this parallel timeline, what would you expect they would find? It could be a result of a misjump for instance. At first they think they are where they are supposed to be, all the stars are in the right place, but when they land on a planet or even when they use their radio to contact authorities, they immediately notice some differences. The Language of this imperium is derived from German rather than English for example, some computers can make the translation, but is is annoying, they land, and who do you suppose would meet them at the Starport?

 

[sideranautae]

Just being realistic. If the Third Reich was victorious, some ugly things would immediately follow, and over a period of thousands of years, what do you think would happen?

Even if they had won the war against the USSR (say England & France chose not to fight) the Nazi's would have been out of power if a few years. They did not enjoy the support of the overwhelming % of the population. Internal dissent was huge. Within the military too because of the sick crap Hitler was ordering to be done to people.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Just being realistic. If the Third Reich was victorious, some ugly things would immediately follow, and over a period of thousands of years, what do you think would happen?

Even if they had won the war against the USSR (say England & France chose not to fight) the Nazi's would have been out of power if a few years. They did not enjoy the support of the overwhelming % of the population. Internal dissent was huge. Within the military too because of the sick crap Hitler was ordering to be done to people.

The Soviet Union lasted for a while. I don't see the Reich as that much different. The idea that Hitler was going for was a Germanic version of the Roman Empire. Most of the Empire builders of Europe had that vision.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Internal dissent post 1934 was basically non existing. And what little did exists was either a "Darwin Award Candidate" (White Rose) or non violent/non aggressiv like Schindler.

The violent tries where from a relatively small and mixed but mostly conservative group. As we know, all 42 tries failed. Not to mention that the group had their own agendas and not "let's end this war quickly". They like the civilians have been blown out of proportions post 1945 for similar reasons as the non existing "Machtergreifung" of January 1933.

Realistically Hitlers follow up (Himmler? Borman?) would have been even more effective in controlling the population. The STASI of 1949-1989 did share more than the uniforms with the RSHA (as did BRD Bekanntagenten of the BND and the "Fremde Heere Ost")

What would happen if you tried to spread the Reich over interstellar distances, lets say the Jump Drive is discovered in 2088 right on Schedule, lets say the Third Reich is still around by this time, has a new Fuhrer, and has the same political governing institutions, and much the same philosophy, though I must say the usual minorities would be getting scarce and hard to find by this time, those that are left would probably be hiding in South America and other such places. Okay someone in the Reich invents the jump Drive and contact with the Vilani is established. The Germans establish a colony on Prometheus, which we'll call Aurora just to be different, there is the usual 5-9 day delay with each jump, The Reich establishes several colonies, and various persecuted minorities make their escape to distant star systems. What happens to the Reich as they go beyond 6 parsecs from Earth say to 12, 24, and 48 parsecs? Would the Gestapo have difficulty keeping track of everybody, keeping records up to date would get difficult when your dealing with colonists in far off star systems. I assume the Reich wouldn't start a war with the Vilani before they are ready. Instead of the UN you'd have the Reich, much the same dynamic between Earth and the First Imperium would occur, following the first Interstellar War, the Empire of Man gets established, but in this case Berlin maintains control, they spread through the Galaxy, and they use ruthless means to keep the colonies and conquered Vilani planets under their control. So the question becomes whether the 2nd Imperium lasts to the Classic Era or is their a Long Night followed by a Third Imperium, since were sticking with this premise, I'd say the Reich is the 2nd Imperium and last to what would be 1105, but he old Terran dates continue to be used. How would the Reich govern 11000 worlds? I would think not as tightly as they ruled Europe. There might be rebellions they'd have to crush and so forth.

 

[Reynard]

There's the rub. Despotic government don't do well over distance especially with Jump physics and so many locations. The Traveller Imperium is the perfect example of starting as a powerful expansionist entity that evolves to a system of semi-sovereign baronies on the honor system to a traditional figurehead central authority.

I think the Solomani model fits closer to the two suggested here which is still relative. All favor a somewhat supremist mindset, enforced or otherwise, with a strong central authority. The Imperium is downright democratic comparatively.

On that note we should continue the discussion here for alternative empire backdrops rather than if they would actually ever occur. We already accept a machevalian European noble house model. Why not other What If flavors? How about an American Empire of yankee ingenuity, rolling over native life forms living on prime real estate and wild west chaos.? Lasers and Stetsons.

 

[Condottiere]

And then we have Orks, which by spelling alone, are in Space.

Or Scotland. :wink:

You're thinking of Orcs.

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

There's the rub. Despotic government don't do well over distance especially with Jump physics and so many locations. The Traveller Imperium is the perfect example of starting as a powerful expansionist entity that evolves to a system of semi-sovereign baronies on the honor system to a traditional figurehead central authority.

I think the Solomani model fits closer to the two suggested here which is still relative. All favor a somewhat supremist mindset, enforced or otherwise, with a strong central authority. The Imperium is downright democratic comparatively.

On that note we should continue the discussion here for alternative empire backdrops rather than if they would actually ever occur. We already accept a machevalian European noble house model. Why not other What If flavors? How about an American Empire of yankee ingenuity, rolling over native life forms living on prime real estate and wild west chaos.? Lasers and Stetsons.

I once did an America sector, It was 16 subsectors, the 4 sectors in the center was the United Space of America, it had planets named after the 50 states of the United States, those were the garden worlds with 6 and 8 atmospheres, I randomly generated all the planets in all 16 subsectors, the best of them in the four central subsectors were the States, There was a planet called New York, and planet California, Each planet has the same population and government type as each of the states of the United States. Since each was a whole planet with the population of a state, there was a lot of wilderness in between the settled parts of each planet. States such as West Virginia got half a planet, the other half is Virginia, There was a planet Dakota, the northern hemisphere was North Dakota and the Southern Hemisphere was South Dakota, same with the planet Carolina Puerto Rico, Columbia, Hawaii and Guam were also planets. I got this idea when I as trying to figure out a way to fight World War II in space. So one sector was the continent of North America, another sector was the Atlantic Ocean and the Sector beyond that was the Europe Sector, with the planets Germany, France, Poland and so forth.