MarcusIII
Emperor Mongoose
It wasn't popular and almost no one played it. Because it didn't fit well with class levels. Even though D&D was wildly popular then too.
Traveller 5E
- Thread starter Sigtrygg
- Start date
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
It was popular enough to get several print runs. Going by CotI anecdotes and forum activity there were as many active players of T20 back in the day as there are MgT players now.
It failed because Hunter Gordon was ill then died, and MWM pulled the plug on the licence and gave it to Mongoose.
It failed because Hunter Gordon was ill then died, and MWM pulled the plug on the licence and gave it to Mongoose.
Yes, the assertion that T20 was played by “almost no one [sic]” is silly, unevidenced and flies in the face of the experience of the CotI founders. In fact, it was sufficiently successful to have wider product ranges than TNE, T4 and T5.
Fortunately, during its print run it had a sufficiently-large player base to give us some nice products based in an area of charted space that has been largely ignored by other Traveller products.
Fortunately, during its print run it had a sufficiently-large player base to give us some nice products based in an area of charted space that has been largely ignored by other Traveller products.
Agreed
Almost correct.
The Mongoose license was signed while all three other licenses had time left (GURPS, T20 & 2320, and Traveller for Hero); Marc was able to negotiate to renew GT. Hunter was not well - Cancer and chemo - but only a few of us — board staff at COTI, Marc, Loren — were told what was going on, and MJD and Hunter had become estranged over matters of contract, so there was no reason to push for extending it; it wasn't getting new product outside the 2320 project... And Traveller for Hero was years in without product - they shoved a gorgeous 2 volume set out the door at the 11th hour. (I wish I'd had the money for the hardcovers, but at least I got the PDFs.)
The 2320 author made the move to Mongoose, and while he had to adjust a bit, by all accounts he's given on COTI, it's worked well for him.
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actionman
Emperor Mongoose
You heard right. D&D has been a house built on sand since 3rd edition. It's as if their business model is planned obsolescence.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
They went down a rabbit hole with the latest version which has alienated an awful lot of people, me certainly. I will ignore "the message" if there is other stuff that is worth it, but I see no reason to get this 5.5 edition, and if they continue with pushing "the message" with 6th edition I won't be buying it either.
Is this deliberately ironic, or do you not know what the sales of 5th were compared to 3rd?
I mean, I’m no fan of 5th (I did enjoy 3rd) but it’s an order of magnitude of improvement in sales.
5.5 appears to have been a terrible mess, particularly as an exercise in branding. It’s undoubtedly a technical improvement on 5.0 which fixes a number of game design issues. But the way it was sold was confused, and the artwork and messaging reflected a certain activist approach from their staff which didn’t have the market they believed.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
In the popular D&D village illustration for the 2024 D&D Pride Collection, the beholder's central eye had a particular design instead of a pupil like its other eyes. Funny how the FBI describes a very similar symbol. What a strange coincidence. Coincidences these days. Oh well.
I don't think they can stop. They willingly devoted themselves to it, drove away everyone who didn't fit their paradigm, and if they reverse course, those who'll buy anything that carries the D&D brand may not be enough to sustain them.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
I don't care how many people buy that pos, my point was that D&D keeps changing rulesets. 2e, 3e, 4e, 5e, 5.5e, and now a possible 6e, which all require the playerbase to buy new books for each edition, this is not a firm foundation. D&D's fanbase are loyal to the D&D brand, not the game mechanics (the players that were loyal to 3e game mechanics went to Pathfinder, the ones that were loyal to 2e went to OSR games). Therefore any game trying to appeal to D&D players will have to engage in this constant creation of new D&D-compatible editions to keep appealing to them.
They made their choices. *shrug* Propaganda does not good art make.
D&D's new romantasy genre is doing well, though.
EDIT: Call of Cthulhu and Runequest both have more editions than D&D, but the game systems in these editions are still very similar and to a large part compatible. D&D's new editions are often completely different games with the same name and similar setting fluff, like 2e to 3e, 3.5e to 4e, 4e to 5e, and now 5.5e to the possible 6e.
EDIT: And Stranger Things is done now, and Critical Role moved on from D&D, so it won't have those to help it. Who cares, time will tell.
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You do understand that every major games company generates revenue, periodically, by refreshing the ruleset and selling the rulebooks and other books again? It's not just something that TSR, then WotC, then Hasbro's "WotC" division did. I mean, from the last bit of your post where you defensively edit in some attempts to get ahead of that, I guess you may be slightly aware of how nonsensical that is:
Call of Cthulhu - 7th edition
Shadowrun - 6th Edition
Vampire - 5th Edition
Oh and you know what? Check out a game called Traveller. The good Lord himself knows how many editions MWM has licensed out but possibly even more than D&D (which is saying a lot because you missed out at least five entire D&D editions that I can think of, off the bat, including the longest-lasting version with huge sales).
If you think that lots of editions of a game are signs of incipient disaster then whoah I have some bad news for you about our common love. And if you think that "still very similar and to a large part compatible" is a defence then hey: let me introduce you to some wholly incompatible editions of a game called Traveller. Check out the name of this thread.
P.S. Neither CoC nor Runequest have more editions than D&D, btw.
Edit: actually I take back the apology, having re-read the post. It's not rude to say that your assertively-stated opinion (see below) is nonsensical. You dismiss D&D (not a game I, myself, enjoy any more) as "built on sand" for having lots of editions that are not compatible. Traveller has more editions that are even less compatible.
I would say, however, that you did adopt an aggressively dismissive line yourself: I get that you don't like other game systems, but you did set the tone by calling other peoples' hobbies a "pos", "propaganda", "romantasy" etc.
I would say, however, that you did adopt an aggressively dismissive line yourself: I get that you don't like other game systems, but you did set the tone by calling other peoples' hobbies a "pos", "propaganda", "romantasy" etc.
