Traveller 5E

[swordtart]

No, a roll of 2d6 has 12 outcomes, a roll of "d66" has 36 outcomes, each with a flat percentage of ~3%

Not the same thing at all, stop for a moment and think about what you are saying.

We have different definitions of outcome.

An 8+ target number has a 42% chance of success with no modifiers, if you want to consider it as two potential outcomes then success is 42%, fail is 58%.

Exceptional is usually for more than 2 standard deviations, but the limits of the 2d6 roll don't allow for that.

By what criteria? Exceptional on p61 is either rolling 6 more or less than the target. With a default 8+ you can get that rolling snake eyes. Entirely possible on 2d6 without any modifiers. Once you count modifiers and effect of 6 one way or the other is entirely possible.

We are not talking about probability theory we are talking the rolls in Traveller (and specifically MGT2 Traveller in my case).

Six successful outcomes, each with their own percentage chance of occurrence.

Not sure what you mean, 3 of the outcomes on the Chain Table are failures and apply a negative modifier.

Boon and bane are a great mechanic, what isn't so great is a PC with a DM of+10 rolling against a standard target of 8... this is especially noticeable in space combat.

I agree space combat applies too many modifiers. Space combat is a bit pants in general though (and the outcome is a bit digital either the ship is destroyed and all characters die or it isn't and it just becomes spreadsheets in space managing the repairs) so I avoid it.

Normal combat requires you to make choices to get those ridiculous modifiers (aim for 2 turns gets you +6, but that means not firing for 2 turns).

I think that greater use of the boon/bane mechanic in place of stacking DMs would create a better resolution system for 2d6.

I don't allow too much unearned stacking. If the player is smart enough to engineer the situation so that they can bring multiple DMs to bear then that is intelligent play. It is generally easier to accommodate an unexpected success by a character than a fluffed roll when the plot was assuming success. However regardless, the dice decide we abide (unless we decide to deus ex machina).

Or use percentile dice.

The game assumes a standard difficulty of 8+, perhaps shifting the standard difficulty to 12+ would make for a "better game".

8+ is supposed to pose a moderate challenge to a "trained professional".

"Trained" is skill 0. I know there are others that apply skill inflation and contest that a professional should be skill level 2 or higher, but a professional is someone who does something for a living not someone who is a subject matter expert.

On p90-91 we are told a "Skilled Professional" has 2 or 3 levels in skills related to their profession. I took that to mean they have a total of 2-3 levels in those skills, not that they have 2-3 levels in EACH of those skills.

You can spend 4 years in basic training and at the end of it you are a trained professional (it's your job). You may end up with no skill above level 0. You are still a trained professional.

You don't get to tell me how to play or referee, all I am pointing out is what is allowed by the rules as written. Traveller characters with cyberware and other augments are becoming street level super heroes rather than blue collar space workers...

I didn't think I was telling you. I offered a suggested solution to a problem that you implied you were experiencing. Personally I am not convinced someone with KCr100's in cyberware is in any way a "blue-collar worker". Blue collar workers are usually the background characters in space opera. A prosthetic arm partially paid for by the company due to some industrial accident is blue collar. A cyber arm makes you "Molly Millions" and a gun for hire, not a salaryman.

The trope of cyberpunk is for the majority of main characters not to even have extensive cyber ware, the chromed ones are usually the target or the big bad.

You should see how augmented some of the characters in my Culture setting are.

"Your" setting.

A 5 term marine and a 1 term scout both face the same chances when their opponent snipes them from surprise with a laser rifle...

Exactly my point and entirely as it should be, the sniper has leveraged every advantage and should not really miss, it isn't hard to hit an unsuspecting target from even quite far away if you get to choose the time of attack. The marine however should be using his training to avoid being in situation where he is the target of a sniper. That is less about skill levels and more about players making dumb decisions. We can be charitable and allow them a Recon skill check to allow them to identify the likely sites of snipers (it's always a church tower in the movies but that isn't necessarily true in real-life) even if they don't know about a specific immediate threat. If they insist in irritating the local crime boss, establish a routine of sitting at a particular cafe at a particular time that is within 200m of an abandoned church then they are not behaving like a 5-term marine.

The problem as I see it is the game allowing easy access to very high DMs via equipment and augmentation.

It is not the game doing that, that is a referee decison.

Only Agent and Army careers allow 1 in 6 chance of a TL12 augmentation as a benefit, it is still for the referee to allow any specific augmentation or equipment. As the limit is KCr75 there are not many that are in budget. The chance of getting the benefit twice (where you can exceed that limit) is naturally lower (on average you would need to take 7 non-cash benefits to get it twice). Other careers offer an equipment benefit but it is often quite poor and the cash is often a better option. If you take it then getting a +1 or +2 sounds a reasonable compensation.

Personally I only allow equipment from the core rules as mustering out benefits. Stuff from CSC etc. needs to be bought in game or is an adventure reward (usually compensating for something the character cannot do rather than making them infallible in something they can already do pretty well). Very little equipment allows you to stack onto a skill bonus. Again I generally only allow 1 piece of equipment to be used at a time. I think DM+2 is the most that a toolkit can provide and that already includes an expert system.

If you are really lucky you might get a skill augment and a toolkit, but that just means that in a single specialism of a skill you are 'da man'. If you have Electronics(Computers)-2 get +1 for a stat and another +2 for equipment and +1 for an augment for a total DM+6, that is your USP, so go team you (you can still fail an average check 1 time in 36 which still makes you pretty fallible in the long term). The referee does not have to spoon feed you computer based adventures though.

"You spend 4 weeks refactoring the ISS data management system. Roll a skill check - ok you get effect x KCr1 as a bonus. You are leaving the building when you get a weird feeling - Roll an Average Recon check - ooh effect -3, never mind. You see a heavy set, rough looking type step out behind a support pillar. Ok, you turn around only to see another man directly behind you holding a stubby pistol. He shrugs sympathetically before your body is wracked in pain from the stun pistol. Ouch, it completely drops your endurance and you crumple in a twitching heap and the world goes dark."

Plenty of good fiction throws someone who is a solid genius in some skill into totally the wrong environment to see them flounder and eventually overcome. These are the good stories.

 

[WHULorigan]

You don't have 36 "outcomes" you have 12 "outcomes" with a not quite standard distribution spread. A roll of 1 and 3 is different to a roll of 3 and 1 yet the outcome is 4.

To have 36 outcomes you would have to read the dice as die a then die b in which case you get a flat probability of 36 outcomes rather then the flat probability of the d20.

The "bell curve" of 2d6 is not a bell curve, that said 67% of the rolls you make will be 5 to 9 (within the one standard deviation bound), two standard deviation give a spread of 2 to 12 so your "outcomes" on your die roll fall into
2 standard deviations below mean - 2->4
1 standard deviation below mean - 5->6
mean 7
1 standard deviation above mean - 8->9
2 standard deviations above mean - 10->12

By setting the standard task target number as 8 you get a flat percentage chance of succeeding on your 2d6 roll of 42%. DMs now have a massive effect on this, DMs of 1->3 are just about containable, but as Endie says it is now typical for a PC to have a minimum of a +5 bonus (equipment, expert program, augmentation) before adding characteristic and skill level.

Using a d20 you would set the target number as 13.

To map Traveller difficulty target numbers to the target numbers of a d20 roll we get something like this:

Traveller target number	2	4	6	8	10	12
d20 target number equivalence	1	2	6	13	17	20

Sigtrygg, might it be helpful to reevaluate the "2D6" target number spread considering a 1-15 range (since Stats can range that far)? In a certain sense, Traveller is actually Hexadecimal, not duodecimal. We only roll 2D6, but the expectation is that base stats, base stat bonuses inherently related to their standard distribution, and target numbers will range higher.

Allow the normal "smooth" curve to be 1-13. 14-15 breaks the curve on the high end. How does that affect the mechanics?
(I am talking in very general terms here.)


Note that most other 2D6 based systems (non-Traveller-related) have 12 as the maximum of their target, stat, and roll ranges.

 

[Endie]

2d10 with targets of 12 for standard tasks, and 16, 20, 24, 28 for hard to impossible ones. That means that the hardest tasks really feel exceptional, even for those stacking advantages. It also means that success in standard tasks is expected for the maxed-out player, but even the Super Bowl QB misses a few.

Yao those saying you just change the game by removing opinions instead: you’re just agreeing that DM inflation is out of hand: all we are doing is arguing over methodology. At least by widening the range of results you allow players to indulge in those sci-fi options the game provides.

 

[swordtart]

I am going to explain why I think there are more than 12 outcomes.

When rolling 2d6 in Traveller the identity of the two dice is irrelevant (if it is then it is a d66 roll). If one die is red and one die is blue it doesn't matter to the outcome if red rolls 3 and blue rolls 2 or vice versa. You still get a 2 and a 3. On this basis the only outcomes would be 1-1, (1-2 or 2-1), (1-3 or 3-1)... (6-4 or 4-6), (6-5 or 5-6), and 6-6. So this allows 21 unique outcomes.

We could go further and argue that the actual numbers are irrelevant and it is only the score that matters (1-5, 2-4, 3-3, 4-2 5-1) are all identical and equal 6. This gives us 11 possible outcomes.

The complication is that there are mechanics in the game like Boons and Banes that do depend on the values on specific dice rather than just the combined total. I am going to simplify the boon as instead of rolling 3 dice and choosing the best 2, I will instead re-roll the worst dice and keep the better score. Hopefully it will be clear that this is functionally identical as we have established the the identity of the dice is irrelevant*.

If my target is 8+ on the dice and I roll a 3 and a 4, I fail. If I have a boon I can re-roll the 3 and hope to get a 4+. If I start with a 6 and a 1 on the other hand I still fail, but I can reroll the 1 and only need a 2+ to make the roll.
With the same initial roll if I have a bane then I have to re-roll the 4, but I can still make may target if I get 5+. If I start with the 6 and 1 however I need to reroll the 6 and my chance of getting a 8+ is nil.

Both initial rolls had a total value of 7 but they are not the same outcome as they have different effects in the event a boon or bane gives a "re-roll".

Another example would be weapons with the "Deadly" advantage. For these a roll of 1-3 is counted as 3. If we have a deadly blade and again roll 7. With a 1 and 6 we count the 1 as 3 and the total would be 9 points of damage. If we rolled a 3 and 4 it would remain at 7 points. Both rolls were identical totals but they are not equivalent outcomes as the specific value on each dice might have caused the special Deadly effect to trigger.

Doubtless there are other wonders and artifacts that also monkey about with dice to make even a simple 2d6 more varied, flexible and interesting than might be initially supposed. It will be far less swingy than a D20 for which each result is equally probable.

*I do it this way in game as it reduces the number of dice clattering about, (inevitably one rolls on the floor) and it also creates a bit of extra tension as a near miss is turned into a success. The boon or bane flipping the outcome generally gets more story focus as well in this way and players can relate to it more when it saves (or dooms) them vs. just being another dice in the mix. If the effect is irrelevant and the initial roll is a success then no re-roll is needed and we save a little time.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I am going to explain why I think there are more than 12 outcomes.

When rolling 2d6 in Traveller the identity of the two dice is irrelevant (if it is then it is a d66 roll). If one die is red and one die is blue it doesn't matter to the outcome if red rolls 3 and blue rolls 2 or vice versa. You still get a 2 and a 3. On this basis the only outcomes would be 1-1, (1-2 or 2-1), (1-3 or 3-1)... (6-4 or 4-6), (6-5 or 5-6), and 6-6. So this allows 21 unique outcomes.

This is simply incorrect

Result	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12
No. of possible ways	1	2	3	4	5	6	5	4	3	2	1

There are 36 outcomes

We could go further and argue that the actual numbers are irrelevant and it is only the score that matters (1-5, 2-4, 3-3, 4-2 5-1) are all identical and equal 6. This gives us 11 possible outcomes.

It is the number of possible ways to roll the final number that gives the probability of rolling that result

Result	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9	10	11	12
probability	1/36	2/36	3/36	4/36	5/36	6/36	5/36	4/36	3/36	2/36	1/36

To get the probability of rolling a given result or higher sum the probabilities for that result and all above it.

So 8+ is (5+4+3+2+1)/36 = 15/36 which is... 42%

The complication is that there are mechanics in the game like Boons and Banes that do depend on the values on specific dice rather than just the combined total. I am going to simplify the boon as instead of rolling 3 dice and choosing the best 2, I will instead re-roll the worst dice and keep the better score. Hopefully it will be clear that this is functionally identical as we have established the the identity of the dice is irrelevant*.

So you are changing the mechanic. Your house rule method gives a different probability distribution than rolling 3d and keeping the highest 2/lowest 2. Further discussion is comparing you house rule to the rules as written.

*I do it this way in game as it reduces the number of dice clattering about, (inevitably one rolls on the floor) and it also creates a bit of extra tension as a near miss is turned into a success. The boon or bane flipping the outcome generally gets more story focus as well in this way and players can relate to it more when it saves (or dooms) them vs. just being another dice in the mix. If the effect is irrelevant and the initial roll is a success then no re-roll is needed and we save a little time.

You are changing the game mechanic and the probability range the game mechanic is based on.