Traveller 5E

The PROBLEM is that the supposed characteristic conflates a bunch of things that are absolutely not inherent to a person, but rather are situational.

Rinku says "normal people, rich & famous, and unsophisticated". Except it isn't that. Because it has nothing to do with how much money you have or how sophisticated you are. You can spend 25 years as a corporate executive or financial broker and still be "lower class" (because there's no SOC modifiers possible from those careers, except +1 if you make Rank 6 as corporate citizen).

It's not how charming you are, because it specifically isn't that. It's not how nicely you are dressed or what your bank balance is, because that changes all the time. It's not your gear or your servants, because you don't necessarily have them.

It's saying that you are intrinsically more or less influential everywhere in human space because of your innate social status. You and your buddy step off the tramp trader onto a new world in your work uniforms and folks will recognize your superior breeding and treat you better than him because you have a SOC 9 and he is only SOC 8. If it was your social acumen, that might make sense. But it isn't. And if you say "well, that's clearly a situation where it isn't the right stat to use, well, then when is it? If it is that niche, why is it worth putting in the same mechanics category as your Int or END?

And, no, I don't want stats to be tied explicitly to Abilities. But I want stats to be things that are intrinsic to the character and broadly applicable in a way that makes sense.
 
The PROBLEM is that the supposed characteristic conflates a bunch of things that are absolutely not inherent to a person, but rather are situational.

Rinku says "normal people, rich & famous, and unsophisticated". Except it isn't that. Because it has nothing to do with how much money you have or how sophisticated you are. You can spend 25 years as a corporate executive or financial broker and still be "lower class" (because there's no SOC modifiers possible from those careers, except +1 if you make Rank 6 as corporate citizen).

It's not how charming you are, because it specifically isn't that. It's not how nicely you are dressed or what your bank balance is, because that changes all the time. It's not your gear or your servants, because you don't necessarily have them.

It's saying that you are intrinsically more or less influential everywhere in human space because of your innate social status. You and your buddy step off the tramp trader onto a new world in your work uniforms and folks will recognize your superior breeding and treat you better than him because you have a SOC 9 and he is only SOC 8. If it was your social acumen, that might make sense. But it isn't. And if you say "well, that's clearly a situation where it isn't the right stat to use, well, then when is it? If it is that niche, why is it worth putting in the same mechanics category as your Int or END?

And, no, I don't want stats to be tied explicitly to Abilities. But I want stats to be things that are intrinsic to the character and broadly applicable in a way that makes sense.


That is why I maintain that it is "Imperial" in nature (for the OTU/Imperium setting). Other settings would need to interpret it appropriately.


SOC is NOT simply wealth. And it is definitely not Charisma, Social Acumen, Charm, Savoir Faire, or Fame. Unfortunately, MgT seems to conflate Fame and SOC (in T5, they are separate scores, SOC being an innate Stat, and Fame being a secondary developed score - SOC influences Fame, but they are not the same).


The best examples I can think of would be the British Empire (or Old Europe) of 150-300 years ago, or the Roman Empire. Social Standing was your Family pedigree and background, and your "position" within the Social Order. You could be an impoverished Noble - but you were still Noble. And you still had Noble privileges and perks (even if you lived no better than a well-to-do Commoner due to reduced financial circumstances). The whole issue of "keeping up appearances" became important in such cases, to many an impoverished Noble's financial detriment. (That is why impoverished or financially-strapped European Aristocracy late in the period would marry wealthy American heiresses - the Aristocrat would gain the financial revenue they needed, and the American heiress (and her family by extension) would gain the Social recognition that they wanted).

When Sir Patrick Stewart was growing up in a working-class family in Northern England, and he announced his intention to go into acting, it was frowned upon because that is not who is family had been (for generations). It is not that it was illegal or improper, but just that it was considered inappropriate for someone of his lower standing and background to be pursuing a career outside what was socially expected of him. It was not a caste system - social mobility was permissible - but there were nevertheless "expectations" derived from class background.

In Ancient Rome, everything was based around Family and connections, and the Patron-Client relationship. A slave who was freed came to be part of the "Freedman" class, and his children could become citizens. He was still a client of his former owner (just as many of lesser status and means were Clients of a more substantive Patron). A Freedman could rise to great heights (in the Book of Acts in the Bible, the Roman Governor Felix was of the Freedman class who had scraped his way up to a significant governmental position - but he was still a Freedman, and many considered him to be "beneath them" and crass and common, despite his position of authority). In Roman Law, people were legal considered to either belong to the "Honores" (those of special honor and distinction due to family background) or "Humiliores" (Common). The legal testimony in Court of people among the Honores was given greater weight than those among the Humiliores.

And it was related (but not identical) to the distinctions between the Roman Classes:
  1. The Senatores ("Elder Councilmen")
    1. The Patricians - Original founding families of Rome - "Old Money"
    2. The Nobiles - Descendants of those citizens more recently elevated to the Senatorial Order
  2. The Equites (The Equestrian Order) - The "Knightly Class" - in origin those citizen families who were wealthy enough to provide cavalry service to the original Republican Legionary Militia - but later an "upper-middle class" rank.
  3. The Plebians (Common citizens) - Lower Class "Citizens of Rome" / Free Men
  4. Peregrini (Provincials/non-Citizens of the conquered Provinces).
  5. Freedmen
  6. Slaves
And there were those of the Plebian and Equestrian Orders who eventually became Senators (their descendants becoming Nobiles) - but the original individual so elevated was still looked down upon by the old-order members because of their class-background.

The origins of the Third Imperium in Classic Traveller (going all the way back to the "Proto-Traveller" era of the three 1977 LBBs) has roots in both the aristocracies of Old Europe and in the Late Roman military-aristocratic system that inform the basis of the aristocratic structure of the Imperium (and hence its Social Structure at all levels).
  • Dukes ("Dux") command the local static defenses (Limitanei) of the Empire (= Third Imperium Subsector Navies under the authority/oversight of the Subsector Duke)
  • "Counts" ("Comes") command the Mobile Response Forces / Field Armies of the military (= Third Imperium Imperial Navy Subsector Fleets of the Sector Fleet under the civilian oversight of the Subsector Duke, but under the command of Admirals who are always at least of Baronial rank or higher reporting directly to the Emperor thru the Chain of Command).
(BTW - an aside: The above is analogous to the difference between the Imperial Naval doctrine of the "Crust" strategy - The Old Roman Empire pre-Diocletian organizational structure with Legions stationed on the Imperial borders when Rome was still at its height and on the offensive; and the later Imperial Naval doctrine of the "Elastic Response" strategy - which is analogous to the Late Roman model under Dux and Comes with static Limitanei troops in a Province under a Dux to hold the line and act as local defense and internal patrol, and mobile Provincial forces under a Comes that could quickly be redeployed to a combat zone (within or outside the Province) after limitanei defense-forces had been engaged by adversaries. - i.e. "The Third Imperium is the Third and strongest of the Empires to rule over this area of Space, but is not as strong as it once was . . . ")
From the above Roman model, analogously:

Soc=1: (= Slaves)
Soc=2-3: (=Freedmen) (lowest classes)
Soc=4-9: Peregrini (Provincials - Common Imperial "Subjects" of member-worlds - upper levels represent "local" Aristocracy
Soc=A: Plebian ("Imperial Gentleman")
Soc=B: Equestrian ("Imperial Knight")
Soc=C+ : Nobiles (& Patricians) ("Imperial Noblemen") - Families
  • Senatores = Imperial Moot members (of the Nobiles & Patricians)
  • Patricians = Old Noble Families
  • Nobiles = More recently elevated Noble Families (Baron - Duke)
  • Comes ("Count") = Imperial Navy Admirals (Baron - Duke)
  • Dux ("Duke") = Subsector Duke/Governor - Commander-in-Chief of Subsector Navy / Senior local Civilian authority over independent Comes/Imperial Navy leadership.
Fame has nothing to do with any of these structures. Wealth is related, but not determinative. Social position has nothing to do with your behavior or bearing. Governmental/Military Position is related to Social Position, but not identical (not 1:1). One can be professionally promoted within a government or military position (presuming one gains admittance in the first place), but that does not guarantee an associated Social Promotion.
 
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It's crippled, if not broken.


screen-shot-2024-05-09-at-11.01.18-am-social-cover.jpg

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With the possible exception of violence.

It's quite possible there is a natural subservience that a greater Social Standing Score organically imposes on non player characters, but it's not something I would count on.
 
The PROBLEM is that the supposed characteristic conflates a bunch of things that are absolutely not inherent to a person, but rather are situational.

Rinku says "normal people, rich & famous, and unsophisticated". Except it isn't that. Because it has nothing to do with how much money you have or how sophisticated you are. You can spend 25 years as a corporate executive or financial broker and still be "lower class" (because there's no SOC modifiers possible from those careers, except +1 if you make Rank 6 as corporate citizen).

It's not how charming you are, because it specifically isn't that. It's not how nicely you are dressed or what your bank balance is, because that changes all the time. It's not your gear or your servants, because you don't necessarily have them.

It's saying that you are intrinsically more or less influential everywhere in human space because of your innate social status. You and your buddy step off the tramp trader onto a new world in your work uniforms and folks will recognize your superior breeding and treat you better than him because you have a SOC 9 and he is only SOC 8. If it was your social acumen, that might make sense. But it isn't. And if you say "well, that's clearly a situation where it isn't the right stat to use, well, then when is it? If it is that niche, why is it worth putting in the same mechanics category as your Int or END?

And, no, I don't want stats to be tied explicitly to Abilities. But I want stats to be things that are intrinsic to the character and broadly applicable in a way that makes sense.
The problem is reading too much into the description of the stat rather than focussing on the game effect.

In reality there are no stats. You could not give a person a STR rating as STR also conflates a lot of only partially related properties. It appears to relate to physical size and fitness as it is a component of your ability to resist damage. If you have high DEX you have good hand-eye coordination, fast reflexes and good agility. In reality people can be good at some of those and appalling at others.

SOC is no different except someone decided that in an entirely imperial setting it was about social class and since they didn't need to worry about any other setting they didn't think about any of the other potential consequences.

You can't change how the game was designed to be played in the 70's and 80's but you don't need to slavishly follow that model if you have decided it doesn't make sense.
 
That is why I maintain that it is "Imperial" in nature (for the OTU/Imperium setting). Other settings would need to interpret it appropriately.
Right. I don't think the rules or the setting actually give you any information for actually doing that. Or what that would actually look like in play. All those historical examples are from single cultures in a relatively close area. If young Patrick Stewart had moved to LA, that birth status wouldn't have carried with him.

Its function is closer to the 2300 Homeworld modifier to doing career stuff than a true characteristic.

You can't change how the game was designed to be played in the 70's and 80's but you don't need to slavishly follow that model if you have decided it doesn't make sense.

Well, obviously. This detour started because someone agreed with the 5e version moving SOC to a background instead of being a characteristic and some other folks thought it should stay a Characteristic.

I will point out that ALL characteristics in the 70s/80s version of the game were situational, not just SOC. They didn't have clearly defined breakpoints and fixed modifiers. Task checks didn't automatically have a Stat applied at all. Your SOC 7 might be worth +2 in one situation, while your SOC 9 only worth +1 in another. And your SOC 12 is actually bad if you are in the middle of the French Revolution. And this was true of STR/DEX/INT: Sometimes 6+ was enough for a bonus, sometimes you needed 10+. Sometimes no stat mattered at all. Standardizing stat bonuses is certainly easier for gameplay, but it does pose issues (for me) with SOC in particular.

I do think that it ought to be changed in the Core Rules, because the core rules should be more general than the 3I. There's a reason most Traveller spinoffs like 2300 and the Cepheus games change it. I suspect it'll be changed in the Traveller rules derived games like Pioneer & Dark Conspiracy. But actually doing that in the CRB is probably needless drama and the options in the Companion likely address it sufficiently. :P

Need to save our drama points for how tall Aslan are and just how OP their stat bonuses should be. :D
 
For those of you who have read at least major portions of the Liaden Universe® by Sharon Lee and (the late) Steve Miller (and if you're not one of them, become one! They're good stories!), I've always pictured SOC as most properly being treated more like Liaden melant'i than anything else - it's very situational, but it's also not strictly personal - the general perception of your clan's melant'i in society influences (but does not totally govern) yours, but so do things like the specific roles of a particular interaction, your "rank" within your clan, your immediate status vs. the person you're interacting with (e.g., you/student to other/teacher - or other/student to you/teacher), and so on.

(For those of you who want to read, check out https://www.baen.com/allbooks?q=liaden and note that there's a second page with another 14 books)
 
As a specific point with Trade stuff, it's SOC OR EDU. And finding an online supplier, buyer or broker is just EDU.

So while a connected or famous character has an easier time of the task, unless their SOC mod is better than their EDU, it's not important anyway.

One more thought on this thing; SOC is your standing in Society. Which in a normal Traveller context has to be the main campaign setting. And is USUALLY going to be interstellar society (although that mostly consists of mainstream cosmopolitan worlds. Hick backwaters that have never heard of you could go either way - your fancy off world ways might easily impress them, or annoy them).

Most characters come out of prior career generation having left their homeworld at some point. At the very least they are usually going to do so from the start of play, unless the campaign is going to stay on their homeworld (and that can be an interesting game).

So to me it makes sense that the Society that the Standing refers to is usually going to be that of the main interstellar one of the campaign. Fame is certainly part of it - the Entertainer career shows that. So maybe SOC is partly an indication of how important your homeworld is? (although there certainly can be important people from an unimportant planet, and unimportant people on the most important world). So if you're a Manager with low SOC, you may just be the Far Future equivalent of Michael Scott from The Office.

Further thought... the interplay between INT, EDU and SOC goes a long way to establishing the nature of the character. High INT, low EDU and SOC is your classic smart guy from the gutter. Low INT, high EDU, low SOC might indeed be someone like Michael Scott. Low INT, low EDU, high SOC is your classic chinless wonder, skating through life on privilege.
 
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Starfinder (1st edition) did it as a split between Theme (more or less your career or background) and Class (your personal archetype). So your Theme might be Ace Pilot or Scholar, but your class could be Mechanic either way. This sounds a different take on things again.

I don't mind class systems as such (you could argue that CT careers are a class system, but archetypes that don't impose abilities probably aren't really classes I guess), though I'm not a big fan of D&D style levelling.
 
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Traveller has always dealt with assymetrical characters. From the very beginning, when other post-D&D games were either copying D&D or coming up with their own ways to avoid Class and Level (Runequest, notably). Turns out... you REALLY don't need everyone to be the same power level, or characters that are "balanced" against each other*, unless your game mechanics force that. And we knew that in 1977.

*("balance" - and level - is an artifact of miniatures wargaming. It was important for the heroes on each side to be quantified against each other and the armies. When the game is a co-operative party vs the environment, there's not much need to balance the characters, especially against each other. However *some* genres do bring the need for it... superhero games are primarily tactical gladiatorial combats connected by threads of plot, so it helps to be able to quantify the player characters against their opposite numbers.)
 
I think it was Player's Handbook that came up with background occupations, prior to adventuring.

And GURPS with character quirks.

Which let you fill out character resumes somewhat, with outside interests and abilities.
 
Traveller has always dealt with assymetrical characters. From the very beginning, when other post-D&D games were either copying D&D or coming up with their own ways to avoid Class and Level (Runequest, notably). Turns out... you REALLY don't need everyone to be the same power level, or characters that are "balanced" against each other*, unless your game mechanics force that. And we knew that in 1977.

*("balance" - and level - is an artifact of miniatures wargaming. It was important for the heroes on each side to be quantified against each other and the armies. When the game is a co-operative party vs the environment, there's not much need to balance the characters, especially against each other. However *some* genres do bring the need for it... superhero games are primarily tactical gladiatorial combats connected by threads of plot, so it helps to be able to quantify the player characters against their opposite numbers.)
I agree you don't need it. I did not like how characters in T20 could start at vastly different levels. I am reserving judgment on T5E
 
How is it any different from having a one term merchant in the same party as a seven year marine and a fiver term naval character.

After thinking about it I think the way I will do it grant a certain number of XP per term of service that the player then spends on levels at the end of their prior history.

I will also be decoupling skills/proficiencies from a governing characteristic.
 
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