Training new skills after chargen

[-Daniel-]

Here, I'll author this for you

Keep the first two paragraphs in the section "POST CAREER EDUCATION" on page 51.

Change the 3rd paragraph to

"The GM can give a Traveller the opportunity to increase existing skills and learn new ones through role playing. Role playing should include having the study and practice time as well as educational resources and tools the GM feels are necessary to increase an existing skill or learn a new one. New skills a Traveller acquires should start at level 0."

And remove the whole "TRAINING" section.

So you are suggesting there be no guidance at all? Just "figure it out yourself GM" and done?

While I don't have an issue with leaving it to Role Play, I would think you would at least want to offer some guidance to new GMs as to what would be "normal" is this situation. Maybe offer some suggested time frames and/or examples of how the character could role play the "training time".

 

[CosmicGamer]

So you are suggesting there be no guidance at all? Just "figure it out yourself GM" and done?

What I posted is my preference to the existing rule with confusing and incomplete guidance which would cause both new and old GMs angst.

It can be mentioned in the core rules that detailed training rules are in the TC.

I say clean up the rules or toss them. But don't leave them as is.

 

[-Daniel-]

So you are suggesting there be no guidance at all? Just "figure it out yourself GM" and done?

What I posted is my preference to the existing rule with confusing and incomplete guidance which would cause both new and old GMs angst.

It can be mentioned in the core rules that detailed training rules are in the TC.

I say clean up the rules or toss them. But don't leave them as is.

Ok, I got that, but back to my question, are you saying you would rather not give any guidance at all and just point them to the TC?
When you say clean up the rules, I guess I am trying to follow your idea to leave it as a role playing situation, not a bad idea by the way, but I think a fourth paragraph would still be needed to offer some kind of minimal guidance. I believe the CRB can not assume people will buy all the other books. If some simple guidance were offered around the role playing, I could see your suggestion working. But without it, your suggestion feels like an invitation to just as much confusion and angst combined with table arguments as well.

If there is going to be a training section, it does need to be clean and clear, I am with you 100% on that point. It can't just leave things half way.

 

[Major Tom]

I believe the CRB can not assume people will buy all the other books.

This is a very important point. The MRB of any game must be written under the presumption that the GM will never buy another book in the line. As such everything necessary to play the game should be in the MRB. In this day and age that includes some sort of post character creation advancement system. Just hand waving it and elling people to shell out on another book is going to turn players and GMs off the system.

 

[CosmicGamer]

are you saying you would rather not give any guidance at all and just point them to the TC?

Personally I think that the suggestions regarding role playing are a form of guidance and removing the entire post career education section and not mentioning improving and gaining skills would be no guidance. But I do know what you are getting at.

In all honesty, I do prefer a solution that stresses role playing over mechanics. But I have no problem with providing clear "guidance".

When you say clean up the rules,

I am currently referring to points 2) and 3) in my post upstream regarding the current 20 week/1 year/EDU roll training rules.

 

[CosmicGamer]

The MRB of any game must be written under the presumption that the GM will never buy another book in the line.

Since when? Often there is the model of the players handbook and the GMs book. Monster manual, setting books and so on.

I think adventures should be completely playable with just the core rules but campaigns will usually require additional books.

What'snecessary? For some the equipment book. Aliens. Ship construction!

 

[-Daniel-]

Since when? Often there is the model of the players handbook and the GMs book. Monster manual, setting books and so on.

So when the CRB says none of the other books are "vital or necessary to the game" should we assume they mean other than the four core rule books? Because right now they seem to be saying only the CRB is needed. Thus my statement they shouldn't assume a GM will buy the other books.

Now had they stated, as D&D did, that the combined core rule books would be needed, then I would not have made the statement. 8)

 

[Kaelic]

My thoughts here...

I don't really want optional rules in the Core Book - it is messy and just looks like we cannot make our minds. And besides, that is exactly what the Companion is for.

So...

Would anyone have any issues if we kept the training rules in the Core book as is _if_ we also had more detailed optional systems in the Companion that offer a choice of mechanics, different difficulties as to what skills you are learning, etc..?

If you went this far, I'd just remove training from CRB as a "mechanic" and make it a GM authorised thing as CosmicGamer says.

Regardless of how you handle the CRB I am 1000% in favour of a detailed optional system in Companion.

 

[Kaelic]

Would anyone have any issues if we kept the training rules in the Core book as is

Yes.

There are problems that should be fixed and not left as is. See 2) and 3) from my upstream post. I really think this is a problem with the rules that needs to be fixed and not a matter of personal preference.

At this point I would rather see it removed and left for the companion rather than kept entirely as is.

Here, I'll author this for you

Keep the first two paragraphs in the section "POST CAREER EDUCATION" on page 51.

Change the 3rd paragraph to

"The GM can give a Traveller the opportunity to increase existing skills and learn new ones through role playing. Role playing should include having the study and practice time as well as educational resources and tools the GM feels are necessary to increase an existing skill or learn a new one. New skills a Traveller acquires should start at level 0."

And remove the whole "TRAINING" section.

You could mention that detailed training rules are in the TC.

This forum needs a Like button. We may have disagreed, but on this point I'm with you totally.

 

[OculusMortis]

Would anyone have any issues if we kept the training rules in the Core book as is

Yes.

There are problems that should be fixed and not left as is. See 2) and 3) from my upstream post. I really think this is a problem with the rules that needs to be fixed and not a matter of personal preference.

At this point I would rather see it removed and left for the companion rather than kept entirely as is.

Here, I'll author this for you

Keep the first two paragraphs in the section "POST CAREER EDUCATION" on page 51.

Change the 3rd paragraph to

"The GM can give a Traveller the opportunity to increase existing skills and learn new ones through role playing. Role playing should include having the study and practice time as well as educational resources and tools the GM feels are necessary to increase an existing skill or learn a new one. New skills a Traveller acquires should start at level 0."

And remove the whole "TRAINING" section.

You could mention that detailed training rules are in the TC.

This forum needs a Like button. We may have disagreed, but on this point I'm with you totally.

I have to say I completely agree with this, it meets head on the main issues I have with the system, allowing the GM to have progression suit their campaign, awarding training for roleplaying, and not fixating on realism. Also having the rules split into a book that might allow greater focus would allow slot-in-systems that a GM can take as they see fit.

 

[Major Tom]

Since when? Often there is the model of the players handbook and the GMs book. Monster manual, setting books and so on.

Does anything other than the ridiculously anachronistic D&D still follow that model?

What'snecessary? For some the equipment book. Aliens. Ship construction!

Ok, necessary is going to involve some subjective judgements but at a minimum character generation, conflict resolution, setting overview, character advancement & basic gear (and arguably the last one is a subset of character generation & advancement).

 

[Kaelic]

character advancement

But not ship advancement?

Frankly if the current option is a YEAR if game time to MAYBE gain a skill point to 0....yeah thats not really a skill advancement system. That may as well not matter. So it shouldn't even be in the book and the options in companion IMO.

 

[Garran]

In all honesty, I do prefer a solution that stresses role playing over mechanics.

Everything else about the system stresses mechanics, and heavily so at that; roleplaying definitely loses out to mechanics when it comes to everything else about the character, so trying to make this one aspect of the system into a GM handwave thing "just because" doesn't fit.

 

[Kaelic]

In all honesty, I do prefer a solution that stresses role playing over mechanics.

Everything else about the system stresses mechanics, and heavily so at that; roleplaying definitely loses out to mechanics when it comes to everything else about the character, so trying to make this one aspect of the system into a GM handwave thing "just because" doesn't fit.

Equipment availability is not a mechanic, unless you get CSC.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Okay, had a rethink of this and no, it does not really work. On the other hand, we don't want new skills popping up all over the place.

Instead, we are going to define a Study Period of 24 weeks (6 months). These need not be consecutive weeks like before, so a Study Period could end up being 6 years. The important thing is that you clock up the weeks.

After a Study Period, you roll. If you fail, you get nothing, try again. If you succeed, you are a step closer to your skill.

The question is, do we just have one Study Period needed, no matter what level of skill you are pursuing? Dedicated work could mean you go from Medic nothing to Medic 1 in a year, and from Medic 1 to Medic 3 in another year. However, 99% of the time, it won't work like that, as you will be adventuring and other other things to worry about.

A bit like distance learning in real life...

How would that sound?

 

[Kaelic]

After a Study Period, you roll. If you fail, you get nothing, try again. If you succeed, you are a step closer to your skill.

So after 24 weeks ticked off, you roll and it's pass or fail? Does this mean another 24 weeks to see if you pass?

 

[MongooseMatt]

So after 24 weeks ticked off, you roll and it's pass or fail? Does this mean another 24 weeks to see if you pass?

That is correct. We can make this process simpler by just having a little checklist on the character sheet.

 

[CosmicGamer]

On first read it seams straightforward vs what you have now and thus I'll allow it. :mrgreen: :roll: but please read on

Might I suggest... Note these are each their own stand alone suggestion and not cumulative.

This is a suggestion I think fits easily within what you propose.
A) Each time you fail, the following check gets a +1 DM
Reasoning: I think it a bit harsh you didn't learn a single thing in 24 weeks. This shows you learned a little something and thus have a better chance of succeeding the second time around. This also helps those that have low EDU characteristics who might fail over and over and over again.

This requires a bit more record keeping but I thought I'd throw it out there
B) Each failure requires half again the amount of training.
Fail once and you concentrate on the educational material and practice the things you are having trouble with but don't have to start over at square one.
1st try 24 weeks, second 12 weeks, 6, 3, 1 (because we always round down)

C) Reduce the difficulty of the roll
How often do people totally fail to learn if they put the appropriate time and effort into it and have the appropriate resources? As is, it is likely, I think a 58% chance, that an average character with no positive or negative DMs will fail a 8+ EDU check. The reason for this portion of the rules is for players who think advancing skills is an important part of the game and you are designing a system where failure is likely and could even happen again and again...

The following are more significant changes I prefer.

D) Remove the roll.

Most actions undertaken by Travellers do not require a skill check.

Why do you think a roll for random outcome, especially at this difficulty level, is needed in this situation? Why roll if a character puts the appropriate time and effort into it and has the appropriate resources?

E) Put the roll at the start of training.
Use the effect of an EDU roll before starting to learn to adjust the length of study time one needs.

 

[Kaelic]

E) Put the roll at the start of training.
Use the effect of an EDU roll before starting to learn to adjust the length of study time one needs.

This is actually a really cool idea. I like it, if we must have a roll.

 

[MongooseMatt]

These are all good points, but I think they probably belong in the Companion. Additional complication is not for the Core Book, and if we can present a bare bones system that covers 90% of need, then build upon it in optional ways, I think the end result will be better.

One thing to bear in mind is that you are not necessarily _supposed_ to pass the EDU roll all the time, unlike (say) combat, where there can be dire consequences for failure - we do factor in that x amount of times someone will fail and thus take longer to train (one of the reasons the original training periods looked very short).

At least, that is the theory...