Training new skills after chargen

[Golan2072]

Suppose...

Suppose we said instead of one week per, we make it one _year_?

Gets abstracted out, still make that EDU roll, but it becomes something that is very much in the background of long-running campaigns and not a factor in shorter ones?

This will actually work pretty well. At this interval, however, there might be some gain even from failing the EDU roll. Possibly model this on the University pre-enlistment option, you do gain something even if you fail to graduate.

 

[grauenwolf]

What if we just say you have to buy additional training? Just like psionics, you lay down your cash and spend a few months of game time (varying on desired skill level)?

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Suppose we said instead of one week per, we make it one _year_?

I'm for it.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Suppose we said instead of one week per, we make it one _year_?

Gets abstracted out, still make that EDU roll, but it becomes something that is very much in the background of long-running campaigns and not a factor in shorter ones?

Using the rules description for level 0 skills A year seams a bit long for a level 0 skill.

If a Traveller has zero level in a skill (Skill 0), then he
is competent in using that skill, but probably has had
little experience in actually using it. He does not get any
bonus from his skill ranks when using that skill from his
rank, but at least avoids the penalty for being untrained.

But for other levels I could live with a year.

Each level represents several years of experience using
that skill, and grants DM+1 per level to all skill checks
using that skill.

Obviously there would need to be some modifications to the paragraphs regarding commitment and uninterrupted study.

In regards to a EDU roll, personally I don't see the reason to add randomness to training. Perhaps adjust a year by a number of months equal to the EDU DM times -1. Sorry, don't know the proper math term for reversing the sign so that characters with a negative DM add months and characters with positive DMs subtract months. Inverse?

 

[-Daniel-]

Suppose...

Suppose we said instead of one week per, we make it one _year_?

Gets abstracted out, still make that EDU roll, but it becomes something that is very much in the background of long-running campaigns and not a factor in shorter ones?

I like this much better. Feels like a true "offline learning" situation.

Using the rules description for level 0 skills A year seams a bit long for a level 0 skill.

If a Traveller has zero level in a skill (Skill 0), then he
is competent in using that skill, but probably has had
little experience in actually using it. He does not get any
bonus from his skill ranks when using that skill from his
rank, but at least avoids the penalty for being untrained.

But for other levels I could live with a year.

Each level represents several years of experience using
that skill, and grants DM+1 per level to all skill checks
using that skill.

So you thinking a month for level zero and a year for each additional level?

 

[TrippyHippy]

Suppose...

Suppose we said instead of one week per, we make it one _year_?

Gets abstracted out, still make that EDU roll, but it becomes something that is very much in the background of long-running campaigns and not a factor in shorter ones?

For me, that suits a lot better. I'd have to try it out in the next session (next week) to check this with players though, as I might be naturally stingy....

It is worth noting, of course, that players who want to get skills quicker could always get an implant. That costs Credits, but to me it's the Credit rating of the crew in Traveller that really equates to the experience system of D&D. An abstract XP system is not a game requirement for Traveller.

 

[Loconius]

Suppose...

Suppose we said instead of one week per, we make it one _year_?

Gets abstracted out, still make that EDU roll, but it becomes something that is very much in the background of long-running campaigns and not a factor in shorter ones?

1 week of train for level zero, one year per desired skill level there after works for me; or is it just one year period regardless of skill? Will there be an edu check after each year if it's multiple years?

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Remember that a Level-0 skill shouldn't be that quick. It represents eliminating a DM-3, so in some ways it is as good as a going from Level-1 to Level-3.

Many skills have a LOT of basics.

Take Martial Arts, Melee (unarmed), what is the BELT COLOR for Level-0? Not white, perhaps not even Yellow, but likely Green. Getting from White to Green is not a one week process.

I am OK with leaving it at 1 year. BUT, you can always take an intense course of study, where you go to school/class/learn 8 hours a day and compress that time down to a month or so. Many mini-courses are 8 weeks and I think that would be about what a Level-0 skill level would be like. Something in that range for intense, non-adventuring, non-working training would be OK.

 

[Loconius]

Remember that a Level-0 skill shouldn't be that quick. It represents eliminating a DM-3, so in some ways it is as good as a going from Level-1 to Level-3.

Many skills have a LOT of basics.

Take Martial Arts, Melee (unarmed), what is the BELT COLOR for Level-0? Not white, perhaps not even Yellow, but likely Green. Getting from White to Green is not a one week process.

I am OK with leaving it at 1 year. BUT, you can always take an intense course of study, where you go to school/class/learn 8 hours a day and compress that time down to a month or so. Many mini-courses are 8 weeks and I think that would be about what a Level-0 skill level would be like. Something in that range for intense, non-adventuring, non-working training would be OK.

I agree with this, making skill-0 roll Education after 1 month and skill-1 or higher roll Education after 1 year. I also agree that having some kind of intense training course that a player can dedicate time and money towards can also be an option, probably in the players option book, they already have augments as an avenue to quickly aquire a skill don't they?

 

[CosmicGamer]

Remember that a Level-0 skill shouldn't be that quick. It represents eliminating a DM-3, so in some ways it is as good as a going from Level-1 to Level-3.

Oh I know this. Know this well. -3 unskilled all the way up to no DM for level 0 basic training. Been a long time issue for me. However this is more an issue with the untrained -3 DM and/or having level 0 skills in the first place. Something I doubt Mongoose is willing to address.

I already quoted the description of level 0 from the book.

You also have a combination of real life and the books mechanics that make me believe Military basic training is few months and you gain 6 level 0 skills.

Last, you have people, players, who want to have fun playing and part of that fun for some is improving their characters. Sometimes you need to throw them a little something.

So those are some of the reasons I see to make level 0 training faster than a year.

Yet I do agree it shouldn't be "too" quick. Maybe with a day, week, or more you get a temporary boon to the -3 DM FOR SPECIFIC TASKS. Many Traveller skills can be quite broad. A one day course in CPR or week long first aid class does not make you a level 0 medic but could be a boon in the right situation. I do think something along the lines of a couple months and not a year for those level 0 skills works. Just my opinion.

Now going back to basic training is few months and you gain 6 level 0 skills... One could say that it isn't just a few weeks of basic training. During the four year term the newbie is practicing, using, and putting to use what they learned and getting pointers from their piers. Those level 0 background skills are from living several years on a world where such a skill would be learned and used often while growing up. So I could live with a year of not just training, but practice or practical use to help those quickly trained level 0 skills "set" and not become dormant and forgotten. However the description of level 0 from the book should be adjusted and not say "has had
little experience in actually using it." and training maybe should indicate some "on the job" or dedicated practice time as well as actual "hitting the books".

they already have augments as an avenue to quickly aquire a skill don't they?

I've always been a fan of the benefits provided by high tech expert software.

 

[vladthemad]

While I'd personally suggest 6 months to get level 0 (this really is a +3 boost after all, it's not just learning how to turn a wrench...in most cases!) and (skill level)*year otherwise as being more in line with the descriptions, how do you think this will work out in actual play? As a player you want to see your character develop, would this be painfully slow? Maybe 3 months for level 0 and (skill level)*six months otherwise? You could call it "intensive" training, especially considering this will mostly happen during downtime while in jump and what not.

 

[vladthemad]

I thought I'd throw this idea here too, as I just posted it seems to fit this thread a lot better than the other one.

What if every time a player succeeds with a skill roll in a useful manner as agreed to by the GM (meaning no saying I'm buying tacos and haggle over the price to help improve broker), he notes it on his character sheet. When there's a break in that adventure as called for by the GM, each player gets a chance to see if he's improved the skills the GM told him to note. He now simply rolls a d6. If it's above his current skill level, he gains a point in that skill.

Using something like this, if you have no or a low skill, it's going to be harder for you to succeed, but if you do succeed it's going to be easier for you to learn from that success. On the other hand, if you have a high skill it will be easier for you to succeed but it will be less likely you will learn from that success.

It also makes it feel like my character is progressing as a direct result of my actions, instead of some "off stage" studying.

 

[-Daniel-]

I thought I'd throw this idea here too, as I just posted it seems to fit this thread a lot better than the other one.

What if every time a player succeeds with a skill roll in a useful manner as agreed to by the GM (meaning no saying I'm buying tacos and haggle over the price to help improve broker), he notes it on his character sheet. When there's a break in that adventure as called for by the GM, each player gets a chance to see if he's improved the skills the GM told him to note. He now simply rolls a d6. If it's above his current skill level, he gains a point in that skill.

Using something like this, if you have no or a low skill, it's going to be harder for you to succeed, but if you do succeed it's going to be easier for you to learn from that success. On the other hand, if you have a high skill it will be easier for you to succeed but it will be less likely you will learn from that success.

It also makes it feel like my character is progressing as a direct result of my actions, instead of some "off stage" studying.

I seem to remember someone already offering a similar idea based on natural 12s. For each natural 12 you place a check mark next to a skill. Once the check marks pass the present skill level you roll your EDU check and if a success you move up the skill. This would show use of skill that is being improved as well as any study. This would also encourage use of skill checks where you do not have any levels, take the -3 and roll the dice.

Not the exact same, but similar to what you offer here. I remember thinking it was an interesting idea. Sort of Random and would be hard to game it for fast levels.

 

[vladthemad]

I thought I'd throw this idea here too, as I just posted it seems to fit this thread a lot better than the other one.

What if every time a player succeeds with a skill roll in a useful manner as agreed to by the GM (meaning no saying I'm buying tacos and haggle over the price to help improve broker), he notes it on his character sheet. When there's a break in that adventure as called for by the GM, each player gets a chance to see if he's improved the skills the GM told him to note. He now simply rolls a d6. If it's above his current skill level, he gains a point in that skill.

Using something like this, if you have no or a low skill, it's going to be harder for you to succeed, but if you do succeed it's going to be easier for you to learn from that success. On the other hand, if you have a high skill it will be easier for you to succeed but it will be less likely you will learn from that success.

It also makes it feel like my character is progressing as a direct result of my actions, instead of some "off stage" studying.

I seem to remember someone already offering a similar idea based on natural 12s. For each natural 12 you place a check mark next to a skill. Once the check marks pass the present skill level you roll your EDU check and if a success you move up the skill. This would show use of skill that is being improved as well as any study. This would also encourage use of skill checks where you do not have any levels, take the -3 and roll the dice.

Not the exact same, but similar to what you offer here. I remember thinking it was an interesting idea. Sort of Random and would be hard to game it for fast levels.

That's not bad, it takes the GM out of it all together. I'd probably drop the EDU check though, so that it's simply when you have (Natural 12 Rolled)*(next skill level) you go up a level. It's already pretty uncommon to get a natural 12, and to flub an education roll after getting the number needed would really sting as a player.

 

[-Daniel-]

That's not bad, it takes the GM out of it all together. I'd probably drop the EDU check though, so that it's simply when you have (Natural 12 Rolled)*(next skill level) you go up a level. It's already pretty uncommon to get a natural 12, and to flub an education roll after getting the number needed would really sting as a player.

Wish I could take credit, but someone else made the suggestion, I just liked it. 8)

I could see the point of dropping the EDU roll. If I finally got 4 "natural 12s" and couldn't raise the skill because of a failed roll I too would be less than happy. :wink:

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Maybe after you get the necessary number of Natural 12's it is an EDU roll every week until you pass? BUT, if you get Effect -6, then you have to start over, or at least get one more Natural 12.

Just a thought

 

[CosmicGamer]

What if every time a player succeeds with a skill roll in a useful manner as agreed to by the GM (meaning no saying I'm buying tacos and haggle over the price to help improve broker), he notes it on his character sheet.

I see this and other tick mark methods as a possible method. Optional. For the Traveller Companion.

I didn't go into the reasons why when it was suggested earlier, but will elaborate on my views now, since it has come up again.

1) Record keeping. Quite a few people are not a fan.
2) The method above suggest a very fuzzy GM/player agreed upon system - might as well have no rules and just let a group role play their skill advancement.
3) Methods (like roll 12) are solely a learn by doing system, and there would thus still be a need for other methods of learning a skill via "training".
4) Similar to 3), I wouldn't want a system that influences role playing and encourages a player to have their character unrealistically dive into doing things they have no skill or training in, like performing surgery or working on the J-drive, because it's how the game mechanics say one learns something new. You really should get some training before you try certain things.

 

[-Daniel-]

I see this and other tick mark methods as a possible method. Optional. For the Traveller Companion.

I didn't go into the reasons why when it was suggested earlier, but will elaborate on my views now, since it has come up again.

So, what system would you like to see used? How would you do it? I am curious.

 

[CosmicGamer]

So, what system would you like to see used? How would you do it? I am curious.

I don't have a set mechanic yet. Currently just wing it. Role play it. Here are the notes I currently have on the subject.

Advancing Skills in Game
Just some observation, personal preference, things to think about, and discuss.

Learning by doing
I can see some realism in a system based on learning through use. Is it impossible to learn something (perhaps a new level 0 skill) through normal everyday non exceptional practice? Is it not possible to learn from one's mistakes? Not sure why a system should be based on just box cars or exceptional success.

This type of learning by doing seams to me most likely, or easiest, at the lowest levels for many skills. Still plausible even at the highest levels as the innovators who push the bounds of knowledge and abilities do so via their own hard work and research and not by just duplicating what others know.

Pick up a level 0 skill through practice and experimentation. Move up to level 1 through use and research and so on.

The higher levels would probably be more difficult and time consuming than learning through other methods.

Self taught
Instructional books, on line learning, simulation machines and so on. Learning things without an instructor and at your own pace is certainly realistic. For many skills, this includes some learning by doing too.

Obviously there is a limit of learning based on the level of the resources available. Some skills will need the proper equipment and resources for simulating or performing "real world" tasks as things like Medic: stitching up a cut or Survival: starting a fire rubbing sticks together, are best learned through actual practice and are not just learned in a book.

Learn from a mentor
It is certainly realistic for someone with skill to teach what they know to another. This method likely includes some learning by doing with supervision as well as some practice on ones own. This method can include some directed self teaching "Here, read this" with help when needed "I'm having trouble with the section on reducing transmutation decay".

Learning with assistance should certainly go faster and be less difficult than self taught or learning by doing alone.

Learn from an instructor
This type of learning is dedicated time spent learning from someone practiced in instructing the subject matter. It likely incorporates teachers aids "Learn from a mentor", research assignments "Self taught", and practice labs "Learning by doing".

To me, it may be a lot of dedicated time and hard work, but ultimately the quickest, safest (want to learn jump engineer 2 through trial and error?) and most likely (if basing success in gaining a skill on a task roll, this would have a lower difficulty than, for example, trying to teach oneself Medic 2) way to gain skill, especially at higher levels.

Advanced learning methods
With advances in tech levels, advances in learning may also be possible. Perhaps these methods still use whatever game mechanics one utilizes for the less advanced learning methods but there is a modifier to the time required and/or the difficulty.

Take the good with the bad
Any system that allows increasing skills should include some balance. What are the options for losing skills due to lack of use? Old age? Improper training? Learning to cut corners? Bad habits?

Pitfalls
Base learning by doing on task results and players may seek out opportunities to roll instead of role play.

Realistically, some skills may take longer to learn than others like Medic 1 vs Vacc Suit 1. Some skills, like astrogation, may be easier to learn from books or on line while others, like art(sculpting), may require more hands on work.

Get too complicated and a system can turn into a lot of record keeping that distracts from role playing.

Not in my notes, and I have not played with it yet, but I had a recent thought that for Traveller, one requirement for easier self learning would be access to a expert program of adequate level and a teaching/training mode.

 

[MongooseMatt]

I see this and other tick mark methods as a possible method. Optional. For the Traveller Companion.

I agree with this and would wholeheartedly support many variant ideas in the Companion. Not saying the existing system is right (!), but there will be tweaks in the coming revision.