Training new skills after chargen

[grauenwolf]

Where I get stuck is how? Harder rolls? Longer delay between rolls? Kill the rolls all together and make this a referee award thing? Do we cap the number of zero skills a person can have as well?

That's why I said 'ignore' instead of 'tweak'. The rule breaks the game as written, but I'm not sure how to fix it.

How's this for a guess...

*************

Total up your character's skill points.

Each week of travel where you aren't assigned crew duty (e.g. steward, equipment repair, medic) or injured you earn one training point.

Once you have enough training points to equal your current skill points, you can make one advancement roll (Edu) each week to learn or improve a skill. Success increases the skill by 1 or gives you a 0 in a new skill and wipes out your training points. Failure just means you have to wait a week and try again.

The target number for the education roll is 4 + (2 * new skill level). Getting zero level skills is almost automatic, but it gets harder at higher levels.

 

[-Daniel-]

How's this for a guess...

*************

Total up your character's skill points.

Each week of travel where you aren't assigned crew duty (e.g. steward, equipment repair, medic) or injured you earn one training point.

Once you have enough training points to equal your current skill points, you can make one advancement roll (Edu) each week to learn or improve a skill. Success increases the skill by 1 or gives you a 0 in a new skill and wipes out your training points. Failure just means you have to wait a week and try again.

The target number for the education roll is 4 + (2 * new skill level). Getting zero level skills is almost automatic, but it gets harder at higher levels.

Interesting idea, I still wish we could add in zero level skills somehow to that total. Maybe treat zero skills as a one for this use?

I will need to play with this a little to see how it would play out.

 

[Bindoner]

Out of historic interest:
CT book 4 Mercenary, Instruction skill-

"Each level of each skill taught requires
six weeks of instruction during which the
referee should severely curtail both players'
activities, or a six month course with other
activities somewhat less curtailed. At the
conclusion of the course the learnlng player
must roll 9+ on two dice to achieve the skill.
with a DM of +1 for Intel 8+ and +2 for
lntel 10+.
Players cannot teach the instructional
skill to other players. Since the greatest
asset an individual has is his pool of skills,
the referee should excercise great caution In
allowing players to hire nonplayer characters
as Instructors."


I like that phrase "the greatest asset an individual has is his pool of skills".

A thought - if a character is spending all their "downtime" in study, and rampantly gaining skills, would the Edu score raise? Perhaps an Int check after every, say, 5 or 10 levels?

 

[grauenwolf]

Interesting idea, I still wish we could add in zero level skills somehow to that total. Maybe treat zero skills as a one for this use?

I will need to play with this a little to see how it would play out.

You would still need to roll a 4+ to get a zero level skill. So that gives us:

Roll New Level
4+ 0
6+ 1
8+ 2
10+ 3
12+ 4
14+ 5
16+ 6

Without bonuses from having access to a research facility (e.g. university, military training center), even a really high Edu DM won't get you to the highest skill levels (unless you get lucky and get double-sixes).

 

[CosmicGamer]

Out of curiosity, why was the MgT training mechanic changed? It seemed to work OK in my groups.

The old version also was not very realistic, but I was ok with it as I saw it's purpose as a game mechanic to help balance characters. The characters with less skills could learn things faster than the characters with lots of skills.

Am I right in saying we all agree there should be some sort of training mechanic to allow some improvement, just we are not sure if the present one is the right one? Or does anyone not want to see advancement at all?

I think that the rules should specifically state that characters can improve skills during game play. However, the core rules perhaps should allow groups to role play training in a manner that suits their group and need not have specific rules. A variety of optional training mechanics could be made available in the Traveller Companion.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

Do guys on submarines have time to train in things other than ship operations? I see them in classroom training when they're docked at a base. But these are guys still in the navy, so technically they are still in their career learning stuff.

Yes, I've tried asking them. And no, they can't talk about their missions ever.

Yes, we did train while underway. We had scheduled training just about every day and you were also expected work on your own on advancement stuff.

I would estimate that the average submariner spent 2 hours a day studying or in class and another couple of hours a day in Drills, PLUS your normal watch rotation, which was about 8 hours a day (we did 6 hour watches with 3-section duty). Towards the end of the patrol, many of the junior people had been trained up and we could go to 4-section duty (1 6-hour watch per day), which made a big difference because you weren't on an 18-hours cycle (which completely SUCKS).

 

[vladthemad]

I'm less than happy about the skill training system as given as well. , I suggest that making all the edu check is required, and that failure means you have to start over at your current level.

Assuming an average 8 EDU character, to get to Level 4 (close to ghod level skills)
0 - one week (41 % chance of success)
1 - one week (2 running) (41 %chance of success)
2 - two weeks ( 4 running) (16% chance of completion in 2 weeks)
3 - three weeks (7 weeks running) (6% chance of completion in 3 weeks)
4 - four weeks (11 weeks) (2% chance of completion in 4 weeks)

I thought about this before, and while I agree with it as a rule mechanic, I don't agree with it from a story standpoint. I like to be able to explain things in a logical manner even if the rules don't go into story telling details. I equate each individual roll you are making to gain that next step on the ladder as trying to understand separate sections of a complicated subject. If you're going through a treatise on orbital mechanics and don't manage to understand chapter 12, you (usually) don't go back and start from the introduction, you go back through chapter 12.

I just went back and re-read this whole thread. Am I right in saying we all agree there should be some sort of training mechanic to allow some improvement, just we are not sure if the present one is the right one? Or does anyone not want to see advancement at all?

I ask because it seems to me, we all just need to find a method and try it out to see how it plays out on the table, so to speak. 8)

I think it's more that we all agree new mechanic makes you too powerful too quickly, and everyone is throwing out ideas on how to fix it.

I do see some people saying they liked the old mechanic though, and I liked it too. Hmm...can we get a vote on who would prefer the old mechanic? That'd be a pretty easy fix!

 

[Raskul]

My 2 cents worth

Players do a skill check and roll a natural 12 add a tick mark to their character sheet next to that skill. Once they get the next skill level tick marks, they can find a trainer. So to go from Computers 1 to Computers 2 they need 2 tick marks and then need to find a trainer or a course.

Characters can only learn the following with the rules.
Rank 0 = 2 weeks (1Kcr for course materials)
Rank 1 = 4 weeks (2Kcr

in MTU
0 basic knowledge ( One day seminar)
1 certificate knowledge ( 1 week seminar)
2 Diploma knowledge ( 3 months to 1 year)
3 Degree knowledge ( 3 years + )
4 Masters degree ( 2 years +)
5 Ph.D

These time are for full time training. Distance learning will take longer and you need to be on the University's "turf" or at an accredited outlet to write the final exams. You cannot write the finals on your bunk.
Experience does count.
As a player one would have to plan days for seminars and certifications etc. you can't just say "I am spending the week Training'" there would need to be planning and decisions that may take you out of play etc.

my take on medic
1 Advanced First aid
2 Paramedic
3 Qualified Nurse
4 MD
5 Specialist

Yes, to become a qualified certified DR you need Rank 4 medic plus ate least 2 other Sicences at rank 1 and one at rank 2.

 

[Old timer]

My thought on a simple tweak, that i think someone else mentioned, is to change the weeks to months. I think in practice PCs would have to take down time outside of jump space transits to improve skills with this tweak. I am also not convinced that a crew do 'nothing' whilst in jump space which would eat into training times.

 

[Kaelic]

I think the best approach for skill training is to approach it from a desired outcome and adjust backwards.

ie..

- You must pass a check at Average (8+). Still not sure on this being EDU, or relevant Stat, or what.
- You need a number of weeks of successful checks equal to the desired Skill level (minimum 1) * 4. So going from rank 1 to 2 requires 8 weeks of successful non consecutive successes.
- A 'week' is 8 hours a day of training or studying. A week in jump travel includes this if the referee wants.

Example at 0 bonus:
0 - 41% 1 Week (7.3 weeks on average)
1 - 41% 4 Week (9.8 weeks on average)
2 - 41% 8 Week (19.5 weeks on average)
3 - 41% 12 Week (29.3 weeks on average)
4 - 41% 16 Week (39.0 weeks on average)

This means without a stat bonus you can go from nothing to 4 in a skill in 105 weeks on average. That's 5,880 hours of study.

I think this is a reasonable balance between real-life and game-play for training time.

If you want to be nasty, you could optionally make an exceptional failure (2) set you back a week.

 

[DickTurpin]

I have been thinking more about this issue and have decided that the rule is fine as it is. Yes, it can lead to rapid skill increases, but that is not always a bad thing. If the GM feels that the training is being abused all they have to do is have an event interrupt the training so that the week does not count.

Players will hate this if it is done too often, but it is a useful sledgehammer to use on players that are trying to break the game.

 

[-Daniel-]

I have been thinking more about this issue and have decided that the rule is fine as it is. Yes, it can lead to rapid skill increases, but that is not always a bad thing. If the GM feels that the training is being abused all they have to do is have an event interrupt the training so that the week does not count.

Players will hate this if it is done too often, but it is a useful sledgehammer to use on players that are trying to break the game.

I can see that giving the power to the GM is always a great idea, but in this case I must disagree with just leaving it as is. The rule does need some tweaking even with the GMs ability to stall it.

 

[Loconius]

Do both aspects need changing though? I feel like the difficulty is alright, and since more tests are needed as you get higher in skill it's functionally similar to simply increasing the difficulty of a single check.

Question: under a best case scenario in character generation, how many ranks can a traveller gain in a single skill (assuming a lot of luck) in a single term?

 

[-Daniel-]

Question: under a best case scenario in character generation, how many ranks can a traveller gain in a single skill (assuming a lot of luck) in a single term?

So let's assume the laws of probability forget to work in this example.

I could get to three. Using Marine as my example:

Roll 1 on Service Table gets me Athletics;
Roll 4 on Event select Athletics (Dex)
Have success on Advancement
Roll 1 on Service Table and get Athletics

Final Skill; Athletics (Dex)-3

Not sure if any careers could get to 4 in a skill.

Now if you count sub categories together I could get to 5 levels of Gun Combat but they would be in different specialties.

 

[grauenwolf]

My thought on a simple tweak, that i think someone else mentioned, is to change the weeks to months. I think in practice PCs would have to take down time outside of jump space transits to improve skills with this tweak. I am also not convinced that a crew do 'nothing' whilst in jump space which would eat into training times.

That seems more reasonable to me.

 

[Loconius]

So even in a four year career term you could get three levels of a skill of the stars align perfectly. So the razor focused efforts of a post creation traveller trying to hone their skills would probably fall somewhere in that time table as well. Requiring one year for each increase would follow that trend, if it was a year of normal activity, maybe half that if they buckled down and only studied and slept.

The idea of making each training period a month (with weekends off, so 40 hours of study about?) doesn't seem unreasonable.

However I don't mind it being even more accelerated if it's ultimately in the hands of the referee for what constitutes uninterrupted training. Alternatively changing the training time to the more appropriate "Semester" might also be worth considering, that's what 4 months or something, like 15 weeks?

 

[TrippyHippy]

From playtesting, I had one player clamouring for upgrading his skills using the new rules.

I have to say I am very wary of this now. There was also an issue about the 'one week' rule because it tends to ring an alarm everytime the crew jumps (as this takes one week too). While this was probably the intent, the knock on effect was a debate by the crew members about who actually had freetime to train and who needed to man the ship in jumpspace.

Personally, I think that the new advancement rules are a bit too easy and formulaic - I think they need to be reviewed again.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Agreed with the speed - though we have to acknowledge the times the EDU check will be failed.

So, what should it be? I am tempted to say number of weeks equal skill level times ten, but that might put things out of reach...

 

[Golan2072]

Agreed with the speed - though we have to acknowledge the times the EDU check will be failed.

So, what should it be? I am tempted to say number of weeks equal skill level times ten, but that might put things out of reach...

Try fitting it to the rate of skill acquisition during character generation... Maybe taking a proper off-play multi-year "seminary" as in Classic Traveller to get yourself a Skill-2 or a Skill-3 from scratch? Maybe one year per skill point with no check needed?

 

[MongooseMatt]

Suppose...

Suppose we said instead of one week per, we make it one _year_?

Gets abstracted out, still make that EDU roll, but it becomes something that is very much in the background of long-running campaigns and not a factor in shorter ones?