Trade Code Question (Core Book)

[daniel_t]

The trade codes on page 181 describe Rich (Ri) as "... blessed with a stable government and viable biosphere..." They need an atmosphere of 6-8 and a population of 6-8, but no government requirement?

Is the mistake in the description or are the government requirements missing?

(In MegaTraveller, Rich worlds also need a Government of 4-9.)

 

[EDG]

I am kinda curious about the changes in the Trade Code table myself (Non-industrial also changed, now it's pop 4-6, not 1-6). If they were deliberate I wonder what the rationale was.

 

[Dave Chase]

I don't own MgT yet but I am curious if all these Trade codes exist in it.

Ab
Data Repository
The world has a centralized collection point for information and
data. Governments, educational institutions, entertainment companies,
corporations, and other organizations for parsecs in every direction deposit records of their transactions and output in this collection point.
The TC use refers to AAB, the Imperial designation for data
repositories.

Ag
Agricultural
The world has the proper climate and conditions which promote extensive
farming and ranching. It is a producer of relatively inexpensive foodstuffs. It also is a source of unusual, exotic, or
strange delicacies.

An
Ancient Site
The world (or conceivably the star system) includes one or more locations
identified as the ruins of the long-dead race called the Ancients. Ancient Sites are exploited for the Artifact remains of this long dead technological civilization.

As
Asteroid Belt
The world is an asteroid belt which is the primary world or mainworld in the system. It is a producer of raw materials and semi-finished goods,
especially ores, metals, and minerals.

Ba
Barren World
The world has no population, government, or law level. It has never
been developed; it has no local infrastructure beyond the starport (if
that). A Barren world UWP has a zero Tech Level.

Cp
Subsector Capital
The world is the political center of a group of tens or dozens of star systems (typically a subsector).

Cs
Sector Capital
The world is the political center of a group of hundreds of star systems
(typically a sector).

Cx
Imperial Capital
The world is the overall political center of an interstellar government
controlling thousands of star systems.

Cy
Colony
The world is a colony of another world (or of an organization).
The inhabitants of this world are called Colonists.

Da
Dangerous
Some aspect of the world (conditions, customs, laws, life forms,
climate, economics, or other) is not well understood or easily understood by typical visitors, and it presents a danger. The world is an Amber Zone.

De
Desert World
The world has no open or standing water. This lack of water significantly
reduces the level of agricultural development.

Di
Die-Back
The world was once extensively settled and developed, but at some
time in the last thousand years its inhabiting sophonts died out leaving
behind the remnants of their civilization A Die-Back world UWP has a nonzero Tech Level.

Fa
Farming
The world has the proper climate and conditions which promote extensive
farming and ranching. In addition, it is not a Mainworld and is in the Habitable Zone. Farming is a rare substitute term for
Agricultural.

Fl
Fluid Oceans
The world's oceans are not composed of water. Non-water oceans
may be valuable sources of raw materials for industry.

Fo
Forbidden
Some aspect of the world (conditions, customs, laws, life forms,
climate, economics, or other) presents an active threat to the health and wellbeing of individuals. The world is a Red Zone.

Fr
Frozen
The world lies substantially beyond the Habitable Zone of the system
(HZ+2 or greater) and environmental temperatures are well below the
freezing point of many gases.

Ga
Garden World
The world is hospitable to most sophonts. Its size, atmosphere, and
hydrographic make it an extremely attractive world. A Garden World has a
safe environment which does not require protective equipment for
humans and sophonts which share the human environment.

He
Hellworld
The world is inhospitable to most sophonts. Its size, atmosphere, and
hydrographic make it an extremely unattractive world.

Hi
High Population
The world's population is one billion or more (Pop = 9 or A). High population worlds, because of the economy of scale for production, produce quality inexpensive trade goods.

Ic
Ice-Capped
The world’s water is locked in icecaps.

In
Industrial
The world has a strong manufacturing infrastructure and is a
producer of many types of goods.

Lk
Locked
The world is a satellite (in orbits Ay through Em) which is locked to the
planet it orbits. A Locked satellite does not have a Twilight Zone; its day length equals the time it takes to orbit its planet.

Lo
Low Population
The world has a non-zero-population less than 10,000. Low Population
fluctuates wildly and may change significantly on a yearly (or less) basis.
Locals are Transients: merchants, corporate employees, military, security,
or research personnel.

Mi
Mining
The world is the site of extensive mining and mineral resource
exploitation. It is not a Mainworld and is located in a star system with an
Industrial Mainworld.

Na
Non-Agricultural
The world is unable to produce enough food agriculturally to feed its
population; synthetic food production generally provides basic food needs.

Ni
Non-Industrial
The world has a non-zero population, but it is in the relatively low range of
more than 10,000 and less than one million. Non-Industrial population can
fluctuate, although not as wildly as on Low Population worlds. Generally the Non-Industrial trade classification remains constant and reflects the
expected level of population. The inhabitants of a Non-Industrial
world are Settlers: individuals who maintain a permanent settlement which
does not yet meet the criteria of Colony.

Oc
Ocean World
The world surface is covered with very deep seas. There is no (= less
than 1%) land above the ocean surface.

Pa
Pre-Agricultural
The world is a candidate for the Agricultural trade classification; its
population is just outside the requirement for Agricultural.

Pe
Penal Colony
The world is a dumping ground for individuals who do not (cannot / will not) conform to acceptable standards of behavior.

Ph
Pre-High
The world is a candidate for elevation to the High Population trade
classification; its population level is just below the requirements for High.

Pi
Pre-Industrial
The world is a candidate for the Industrial trade classification; its
population is just below the requirements for Industrial.

Po
Poor
The world has poor grade living conditions: a scarcity of water and a
relatively sparse atmosphere.

Pr
Pre-Rich
The world is a candidate for the Rich trade classification; its population is just outside the requirements for Rich.

Pu
Puzzle
Some aspect of the world (conditions, customs, laws, life forms,
climate, economics, or other) is not well understood or easily understood by typical visitors. The world is an Amber Zone.

Re
Reserve
The world has been set aside by the highest levels of government to
preserve some aspect of its indigenous life forms, to delay development of its resources, to frustrate investigation of some aspect of the world, or to prevent exploitation of the world by outside organizations.

Ri
Rich
The world has an untainted atmosphere which is comfortable and
attractive for most sophonts, and has a population suitable as a workforce.

Sa
Satellite
The world is the satellite of a planet (or gas giant) in the system.

Tr
Tropic
The world is relatively warmer than normal (although it is considered
habitable). Its orbit is at the inner (warmer) edge of the Habitable Zone.
The world has a Hot climate (at the upper limits of human temperature
endurance).

Tu
Tundra
The world is relatively colder than normal (although it is considered
habitable). Its orbit is at the outer (colder) edge of the Habitable Zone.
The world has a Cold climate (at the lower limits of human temperature
endurance).

Tw
Twilight Zone
The world is tidally locked with a Temperate band at the Twilight Zone,
plus a Hot region (hemisphere) facing the Primary and a Cold region
(hemisphere) away from the Primary.

Va
Vacuum World
The world has no atmosphere.

Wa
Water World
The world surface is covered with water; there is very little land ( = less
than 10%) above the water surface.

Terminology
Asteroid Belt. A series of small fragments orbiting a star and which is considered a mainworld.

Belt. An asteroid belt.or a planetoid belt.

Habitable Zone. The orbit (or orbits) around a star which allow produce local world temperatures and conditions conducive
to human (or similar sophont) habitation.

Mainworld. The principal or primary or most important world in a star system. The Mainworld may be a planet or a satellite
or an asteroid belt.

Planet. A world orbiting a star.

Planetoid Belt. A series of small fragments orbiting a star. A planetoid belt which is a mainworld is called an asteroid belt.

Satellite. A world orbiting a planet.

World. A planet or a satellite.


Dave Chase

 

[Emperor Herdan]

I don't own MgT yet but I am curious if all these Trade codes exist in it.

Ab
Data Repository
Not in Core/Spinward

Ag
Agricultural
Yes

An
Ancient Site
Not in Core/Spinward

As
Asteroid Belt
Yes

Ba
Barren World
Yes

Cp
Subsector Capital
Not in Core / Yes in SM (as Cap)

Cs
Sector Capital
Not in Core / Yes in SM (as Cap)

Cx
Imperial Capital
Not in Core

Cy
Colony
Not in Core/Spinward

Da
Dangerous
Not in Core/Spinward
The world is an Amber Zone. Would only be denoted as Amber

De
Desert World
Yes

Di
Die-Back
No

Fa
Farming
No

Fl
Fluid Oceans
Yes

Fo
Forbidden
No. The world is a Red Zone. Would be denoted as Red Zone

Fr
Frozen
Maybe... Might be considered "Ice Capped" see below

Ga
Garden World
Yes

He
Hellworld
No

Hi
High Population
Yes

Ic
Ice-Capped
Yes.

In
Industrial
Yes

Lk
Locked
No

Lo
Low Population
Yes.

Mi
Mining
No

Na
Non-Agricultural
Yes

Ni
Non-Industrial
Yes

Oc
Ocean World
Yes save the core book refers to this as Wa for Water world

Pa
Pre-Agricultural
No

Pe
Penal Colony
No

Ph
Pre-High
No

Pi
Pre-Industrial
No

Po
Poor
Yes

Pr
Pre-Rich
No

Pu
Puzzle
No

Re
Reserve
No

Ri
Rich
Yes

Sa
Satellite
No

Tr
Tropic
No

Tu
Tundra
No

Tw
Twilight Zone
No

Va
Vacuum World
Yes

Wa
Water World
Yes See Ocean world

Two other classes exist. Low Tech (LT, 5-) and High Tech (HT 12+)

Terminology No, not really... The world creation section is more of a generalized system
Asteroid Belt. A series of small fragments orbiting a star and which is considered a mainworld.

Belt. An asteroid belt.or a planetoid belt.

Habitable Zone. The orbit (or orbits) around a star which allow produce local world temperatures and conditions conducive
to human (or similar sophont) habitation.

Mainworld. The principal or primary or most important world in a star system. The Mainworld may be a planet or a satellite
or an asteroid belt.

Planet. A world orbiting a star.

Planetoid Belt. A series of small fragments orbiting a star. A planetoid belt which is a mainworld is called an asteroid belt.

Satellite. A world orbiting a planet.

World. A planet or a satellite.


Dave Chase

Hope this helps

Take care

E. Herdan[/b]

 

[daniel_t]

The trade codes on page 181 describe Rich (Ri) as "... blessed with a stable government and viable biosphere..." They need an atmosphere of 6-8 and a population of 6-8, but no government requirement?

Is the mistake in the description or are the government requirements missing?

(In MegaTraveller, Rich worlds also need a Government of 4-9.)

I noticed that my question wasn't answered. Is there somewhere else I should post to get the answer?

 

[AndrewW]

The trade codes on page 181 describe Rich (Ri) as "... blessed with a stable government and viable biosphere..." They need an atmosphere of 6-8 and a population of 6-8, but no government requirement?

Is the mistake in the description or are the government requirements missing?

(In MegaTraveller, Rich worlds also need a Government of 4-9.)

I noticed that my question wasn't answered. Is there somewhere else I should post to get the answer?

There is The Rulemasters but no guarantee of an answer:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=75

 

[Emperor Herdan]

The trade codes on page 181 describe Rich (Ri) as "... blessed with a stable government and viable biosphere..." They need an atmosphere of 6-8 and a population of 6-8, but no government requirement?

Is the mistake in the description or are the government requirements missing?

(In MegaTraveller, Rich worlds also need a Government of 4-9.)

I noticed that my question wasn't answered. Is there somewhere else I should post to get the answer?

There is The Rulemasters but no guarantee of an answer:

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=75

Actually the book does have both Law level and Government columns (sic)

And they're only used for Barren worlds, both being "0" as type...

I would think that a government type doesn't matter for a rich world... It's rich because of the natural abundance etc, not because of any govenment type is how I think they've interpeted it now...

Makes a bit of sense...Now weather it always _remains_ a rich world... well that all depends eh? (wink)

Take care and Hope this helped...

E. Herdan

 

[daniel_t]

The trade codes on page 181 describe Rich (Ri) as "... blessed with a stable government and viable biosphere..." They need an atmosphere of 6-8 and a population of 6-8, but no government requirement?

Is the mistake in the description or are the government requirements missing?

(In MegaTraveller, Rich worlds also need a Government of 4-9.)

Actually the book does have both Law level and Government columns (sic)

And they're only used for Barren worlds, both being "0" as type...

I would think that a government type doesn't matter for a rich world... It's rich because of the natural abundance etc, not because of any govenment type is how I think they've interpeted it now...

Makes a bit of sense...Now weather it always _remains_ a rich world... well that all depends eh? (wink)

Take care and Hope this helped...

E. Herdan

Thanks, I would agree except the description explicitily says that a rich world is "blessed with a stable governement..."

I guess the assumption is that any form of government will be stable if the atmosphere is nice and there are just the right number of people? But that would mean that Earth, during WWII had a "stable government" and Arrakis in the book Dune as well...

This leads me to wonder what the author(s) mean when they say "stable government".

 

[CosmicGamer]

In general, most governments types can conceivably be considered stable or unstable. Is the democracy in the US stable? During the period before a US election, you could say that government is slightly less stable. Ever hear of the term 'lame duck'. Who will be elected? Our economy tends to be a bit more in stress during this period. This is probably not enough to call the government unstable though. I don't believe the 'democracy' currently in Iraq would be considered stable. Please no real world debate, just trying to come up with an example of an unstable democracy. So, one interpretation could be that the government type doesn't matter too much, just it's 'stability'.

The only government I see as breaking this is type 7, Balkanization.

 

[Paladin]

In general, most governments types can conceivably be considered stable or unstable.

Agreed.

The only government I see as breaking this is type 7, Balkanization.

Balkanized can still be stable. Lots of blowhards that bicker in the halls of power but never do anything militarily. Possibly because they are all rich fat cats not willing to risk destabilizing things and losing their money or ruining their economy.

Additionally, I'd say balkanized, bickering rivals can be one of the fastest ways to get rich if you can navigate the diplomatic waters and play all sides against each other.

 

[daniel_t]

In general, most governments types can conceivably be considered stable or unstable... Please no real world debate, just trying to come up with an example of an unstable democracy. So, one interpretation could be that the government type doesn't matter too much, just it's 'stability'.

I fully agree of course, and I'm not interested in real world debate (at least not here,) only in rules interpretations.

The rules specify that a Rich world is "blessed with a stable government and a viable biosphere." but the only real requirement is that it has a breathable atmosphere (even if somewhat dense) and a population in the millions.

I'm not asking here what government types are stable, I am only asking how Mongoose expects us to interpret the above. What was there intent when they included that particular phraseology, or was it a typo?

 

[EDG]

I'm not asking here what government types are stable, I am only asking how Mongoose expects us to interpret the above. What was there intent when they included that particular phraseology, or was it a typo?

During the playtest I proposed an alternate definition that defined "richness" in mineralogical (size), biochemicals (atmosphere), and social (population) terms - Poor worlds were small (not much geological processing), uninhabitable (no biosphere for making interesting chemicals and bioproducts), and had low population (not much interesting culture to produce interesting information). Conversely, Rich worlds were large, habitable, and high population.

My alternate definitions were as follows:

Po (Poor):             siz 1-4, atm 0-3/A, pop 1-5.
Ri (Rich):             siz 7+, atm 4-9, pop 8+

Personally I think that makes a lot more sense than the existing traveller ones, and the logic is much more internally consistent too. And this way, poor worlds really were poor in every way, while rich worlds really were rich in every way.

(I know that doesn't answer your question, but I asked it in the playtest too and never got a response then either...)

 

[CosmicGamer]

I am only asking how Mongoose expects us to interpret the above. What was there intent when they included that particular phraseology, or was it a typo?

1)Well, I certainly can not state what Mongoose expects or what their intent is. I can only give possible interpretations. If you are not interested in individual interpretations, I suggest you try the Rules thread of the forum or 'speak' with a mongoose representative. Please come back here and post anything you find out.

2) Often Mongoose expects nothing and has no intent. They often leave things up to the GM and players. In this case, it is up to the GM to determine if the government, no matter what type, is stable or not.

 

[Mongoose Gar]

Sorry about the delay in replying - I just checked my original manuscript, and that had the Government type for Rich worlds at 4-9, so the change must have been made during editing.

As to whether it's deliberate or a typo - I'm guessing it's deliberate, as we'd talked about changing the Trade code, (surely, any world wealthy in minerals is a Rich world from the point of view of trade) in which case, the reference to a 'stable government' is an error.

 

[EDG]

Gar - what about the change to Non-Industrial worlds? They used to be pop 6 or less, now in MGT they are pop 4-6. Was there any reason for that change?

 

[CosmicGamer]

Gar - what about the change to Non-Industrial worlds? They used to be pop 6 or less, now in MGT they are pop 4-6.

I read about this somewhere. The concept is that this is a trade code signifying a demand for goods. A low population non industrial world does not have a high enough demand to get the trade code. Hope I explained that right.

 

[captainjack23]

Gar - what about the change to Non-Industrial worlds? They used to be pop 6 or less, now in MGT they are pop 4-6.

I read about this somewhere. The concept is that this is a trade code signifying a demand for goods. A low population non industrial world does not have a high enough demand to get the trade code. Hope I explained that right.

That's what I remember: non industrial indicates a level of demand for industrial goods that can be worth supplying.

I think the important thing to remember is that most of these are defined from a very merchantile/trade perspective, and as such may differ from other classification schemes based solely on potential resources for development, or whatnot.

 

[EDG]

I think the important thing to remember is that most of these are defined from a very merchantile/trade perspective, and as such may differ from other classification schemes based solely on potential resources for development, or whatnot.

Arguably the only codes defined from a "mercantile/trade perspective" are Na/Ni/Ag/In, because they're the only codes that tell you anything about the nature of the local economy. Ri/Po (as defined) are half mercantile and half physical. As, De, Fl, Ga, Ic, Wa and Va are all physical definitions, and Hi/Lo/Ht/Lt are just informational codes telling you about the population or technology levels.

IIRC even T5 splits the codes up in a similar way.

 

[captainjack23]

I think the important thing to remember is that most of these are defined from a very merchantile/trade perspective, and as such may differ from other classification schemes based solely on potential resources for development, or whatnot.

Arguably the only codes defined from a "mercantile/trade perspective" are Na/Ni/Ag/In, because they're the only codes that tell you anything about the nature of the local economy. Ri/Po (as defined) are half mercantile and half physical. As, De, Fl, Ga, Ic, Wa and Va are all physical definitions, and Hi/Lo/Ht/Lt are just informational codes telling you about the population or technology levels.

IIRC even T5 splits the codes up in a similar way.

All of the ones you mention , or at least most of them, are specific flags for stuff you want to trade for or with on the planets. Granted some of them are defined by physical needs (vacc suits due to Atm), some are social needs (high tech gegaws on a high tech world) rather than simple economics. Its always seemed a very prqctical kind of rating; what ever the source, physical or technological, if it tells me what to carry or what I can buy, its good.
They do potentially provide useful Secondary information (such as, should I bring my own water) but that doesn;t seem to be the main point...if it were, there would be more codes for hazards, or for govt/population combinations perhaps.

My 2 cr anyway, and not worth arguing over in the long run. use 'em as you want, i'm sure the Merchantile Guild won't complain.

 

[EDG]

They do potentially provide useful Secondary information (such as, should I bring my own water) but that doesn;t seem to be the main point...if it were, there would be more codes for hazards, or for govt/population combinations perhaps.

I think the huge list of codes that Dave Chase posted earlier were from T5, which seemed to be going in that direction.