Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Ten times smaller, at the cost of skipping a round to reload.
Torpedoes vs the Sensop (Electronic Warfare)
- Thread starter Yenaldlooshi
- Start date
Yenaldlooshi
Cosmic Mongoose
Maybe we should back up a bit and ask a very basic game design question;
What do we WANT a weapon called a "Torpedo" to be and what qualities do we WANT it to have?
This would be my answer:
Torpedo should be a bigger, heavier, more destructive weapon than a missile.
It should be harder to defend against and certainly not easier to defend against than missiles.
Its cost should scale with its increased abilities with regard to that destructiveness and durability.
HG seems to agree when on HG31="Torpedoes are treated in every way like missiles, although they tend to be a lot more powerful."
also, and this may seem odd but still important to me:
It should have some resemblance in its use and place in game-warfare to the use of real-world naval torpedoes in real warfare.
Lastly, there should be dramatic tension as a torpedo closes in on targets a v. long or distant range.
In trying to use the rules canon we have:
A standard Torpedo costs 2.4 times the cost of a missile.
It halves the effect PD defense vs. missiles which is only allowed once per salvo.
Launch rates of missiles vs torpedoes come out to be
Barbette=5 vs 1 (presumably, rof is not explicit)
Small Bay=12 vs 3 = missile salvo 4 times effective vs. Torpedo
Med Bay=24 vs 6 = missile salvo 4 times effective vs. Torpedo
Large Bay=120 vs 30 = missile salvo 4 times effective vs. Torpedo
Damage (standard) is 4D vs 6D
So after analyzing all of this, here is my house rule suggestion (until Mg agrees with me), "Due to more ECCM Hardware packed into their larger chassis, Torpedoes are much more difficult to defeat with EW. In order to defeat a torpedo or salvo of torpedoes, you must accumulate 4 points of successful effect for each torpedo defeated.
For example, a barbette launches a torpedo in turn 1 and another in turn 2, then a third in turn 3. The sensor op attempts EW in turn 1 on the first one and gets an effect of 3, the first is still alive into turn 2. Then the sense op gets an effect of 2, this kills the first torpedo, and puts 1 point of effect on the second. 2nd torpedo is still inbound. 3rd turn, 3rd torpedo launches.
2 sensor operators, one on the bridge and one at an additional sensor station attempt to defeat a salvo of 3 inbound torpedoes. They make their rolls and each succeeds with an effect 5 totalling 10. This destroys 2 of the 3 torpedoes leaving 2 more points of effect on the 3 before it will be defeated... better hope they are at Long+ range if they want to reattempt.
This HR achieves all the design intentions I would have and I think what the RAW might prefer. They had some good rules but seemed to forget about EW and how the lower launch rate of torpedoes would make them particularly prone to it.
What do we WANT a weapon called a "Torpedo" to be and what qualities do we WANT it to have?
This would be my answer:
Torpedo should be a bigger, heavier, more destructive weapon than a missile.
It should be harder to defend against and certainly not easier to defend against than missiles.
Its cost should scale with its increased abilities with regard to that destructiveness and durability.
HG seems to agree when on HG31="Torpedoes are treated in every way like missiles, although they tend to be a lot more powerful."
also, and this may seem odd but still important to me:
It should have some resemblance in its use and place in game-warfare to the use of real-world naval torpedoes in real warfare.
Lastly, there should be dramatic tension as a torpedo closes in on targets a v. long or distant range.
In trying to use the rules canon we have:
A standard Torpedo costs 2.4 times the cost of a missile.
It halves the effect PD defense vs. missiles which is only allowed once per salvo.
Launch rates of missiles vs torpedoes come out to be
Barbette=5 vs 1 (presumably, rof is not explicit)
Small Bay=12 vs 3 = missile salvo 4 times effective vs. Torpedo
Med Bay=24 vs 6 = missile salvo 4 times effective vs. Torpedo
Large Bay=120 vs 30 = missile salvo 4 times effective vs. Torpedo
Damage (standard) is 4D vs 6D
So after analyzing all of this, here is my house rule suggestion (until Mg agrees with me), "Due to more ECCM Hardware packed into their larger chassis, Torpedoes are much more difficult to defeat with EW. In order to defeat a torpedo or salvo of torpedoes, you must accumulate 4 points of successful effect for each torpedo defeated.
For example, a barbette launches a torpedo in turn 1 and another in turn 2, then a third in turn 3. The sensor op attempts EW in turn 1 on the first one and gets an effect of 3, the first is still alive into turn 2. Then the sense op gets an effect of 2, this kills the first torpedo, and puts 1 point of effect on the second. 2nd torpedo is still inbound. 3rd turn, 3rd torpedo launches.
2 sensor operators, one on the bridge and one at an additional sensor station attempt to defeat a salvo of 3 inbound torpedoes. They make their rolls and each succeeds with an effect 5 totalling 10. This destroys 2 of the 3 torpedoes leaving 2 more points of effect on the 3 before it will be defeated... better hope they are at Long+ range if they want to reattempt.
This HR achieves all the design intentions I would have and I think what the RAW might prefer. They had some good rules but seemed to forget about EW and how the lower launch rate of torpedoes would make them particularly prone to it.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Half of them don't wander off after thirty minutes.
And, according to Robots, last two hours.
And, according to Robots, last two hours.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
A torpedo barbette can launch 1 torpedo per 5 Dt and 1 hardpoint.
A Torpedo bay can launch 3 torpedoes per 50 Dt ≈ 1 torpedo per 17 Dt and 1/3 hardpoint.
Barbettes are more efficient by tonnage, bays are more efficient per hardpoint.
A 200 kDt battleship can launch more torpedoes by combining bays and barbettes to use hardpoints and tonnage optimally.
Fighters can theoretically launch masses of tiny salvoes, overwhelming EW and PD by sheer numbers.
Yenaldlooshi
Cosmic Mongoose
If you have perfect intelligence on your enemy, and know that they will be armed with torpedoes, and you can get a hold of this defense, and you have chosen to load racks with these instead of more effective missiles vs ships, then yes you have, and probably deserve, to make their torpedoes useless.
of course, in so doing, you have also made your own missile launchers dedicated to this nearly useless, until you spend the action steps to unload/reload with non anti-torp missiles.
This not always being the case, I think torpedoes still are alive and well in the age of the anti-torp missile.
AnotherDilbert
Emperor Mongoose
But torpedo bays are much cheaper than missile bays.
Isocost we get more torpedo ships than missile ships, at least in HG'16 that was significant.
You have to compare ships or fleets, not just the weapon system.
By RAW only one EW attempt per salvo per turn.
