Too many HP?

[Anonymous]

When you said "current system" you meant to say the "current system of your house rules" and not "the current system of the stock Conan rules" (which is what I thought you meant up until now)???

Nope. You had it right the first time. Under the current Conan system (not my house rules) it appears that as levels increase Finesse becomes increasingly the better option as the relative chance to hit increases and it becomes easier to circumvent Armor.

Well yeah, if you add AP as a bonus to damage and let the Bill be used as a finesse weapon there will come a time where it is better to finess said Bill than not!!

As I mentioned this only in the rarest of circumstances, at 20th level with DR 11 and 12. Otherwise finesse is never a good option with a Bill.

I'd say that right there is a prety clear indication that your house rules aren't working too well. Not to mention the fact that it gives some weapons a boost to damage of 6 or 7 points, which will look absouetly horrible on a crit, and everything else thats already been mentioned as a reason not to do it.

I disagree. Applying the current system, leaving aside the restriction on Bills for finesse, Bills would actually make decent finesse weapons much sooner. So I think this shows the house rules reinforce common sense through the game mechanics without the need for additional restrictions. YMMV.

In addition, I did not say that AP is a pure damage bonus. As I mentioned clearly in my last few emails, I reverted back to it purely reducing DR. So the AP won't have any effect on a critical except to reduce the DR as per usual.

Thanks for you comments Argos. I think you were confused at what I was trying to say but I enjoyed it anyway.

 

[argo]

hoo boy, and here I told myself I was done with this thread

When you said "current system" you meant to say the "current system of your house rules" and not "the current system of the stock Conan rules" (which is what I thought you meant up until now)???

Nope. You had it right the first time. Under the current Conan system (not my house rules) it appears that as levels increase Finesse becomes increasingly the better option as the relative chance to hit increases and it becomes easier to circumvent Armor.

Ok, no more mistakes here. We are talking about finesse in stock Conan.

If by "relative chance to hit increases" you mean a level 10 dude figthing a level 2 mook in heavy armor, then yeah, you're right that finesse is a good option in that situatuion (of course so is a good PA but that is just nit-picking :wink: )

But in a encounter that is balanced for the level of the PC's (not that balance means as much in Conan as it does in DnD) then there can be no doubt that:
-if the opponents are wearing no armor they die quick and bloody deaths regardless of how you attack them
-if the opponents are in light or medium-light armor then finesse and Str are about equal
-if the opponents are in medium-heavy or heavy armor then finesse is nearly useless compared to Str, unless you can gain some advantage like having a couple of your friends grapple the other guy.

Why? because the odds of anyone finessing past heavy armor are lousy and stock finesse weapons do not do enough damage to power through high DR. Finesse is a fine option and a great way to build a character. But it defanetly is not designed to beat heavy armor no matter what your level is.

Good luck.

 

[Sutek]

Maybe I should just restate what I am intending:

A weapon's AP (not including Str bonus) is reduced from an Armour's DR directly.

That's backwards. So what you're intending to do is have the DR of the armour reduce the AP of the weapon? It's not even backwards.... :?

Now this may sound like I'm being awfully superior and condescending here, so I appologize up front, but you do realize that AP+STRB is a comparative thing and not actually subtractive to DR? You just look at AP and STR bonus added together and compare it to the armour's DR to see if that DR shoul dbe halved or not when applying damage for that strike.

I think what you are sugesting is this:
Armour DR10
Weapon AP6
STR bonus +2

Strike hits. AP is reduced by Armour DR, in this case to -4 and so irrelevant.

Armour DR5
Weapon AP6
STR bonus +2

Strike hits. AP is reduced by Armour DR, in this case to +1 and so that is applied as a damage bonus along with the STR+2 to the damage roll.

You realize that is making damage, and combat, emensly less deadly, right?

The way it works out of the book is this:
Armour DR5
Weapon AP6
STR bonus +2

Strike hits. Total AP is 8 and compared to Armour DR5, and since it's greater, the DR will be halved for this strike. Relative BAB and DV never enter into it.

The result is very similar to the existing system. However, effect of DR is gradual rather than providing a drop off point where some weapons become ineffective.

In general, weapons do roughly 1 or 3 HP more at times especially on DRs that are just above the AP. But hi Strength wielders may suffer up to a 3 HP reduction against the heaviest armours. Essentially, they don't get the double whammy from hi Str reducing DR as well as causing more damage.

One of us is totally confused. :lol:

In the example above, the DR5 is reduced to half, rounded down (DR2) so the base damage will be STRB+dice for the weapon. Where are you arriving ar "3 HP" and stuff? If this guy were using a Bill, although hish DTR+2 is negated by the remaining DR, he still gets 2d8 for an average of 9HPs damage.

I have checked this house rule against Finesse and actually found that the rules seem to make the finesse rules more intuitive and balanced. I have check this very roughly from 1st level up to 20th level. Leaving aside the effects of a hi Str or Dex, small weapons remain better in finesse, larger weapons in Str and med weapons will depend on the level of DR and other features such as Attributes.

And that's why small/light weapons are Finesse weapons in the Conan rules and large/heavy weapons are never Finesse weapons. You can't choose to Finesse with a Bill. There is no choice - you either pound it out or do not. If you have a high str, you pick high AP weapons to enhance that. If you have a high DEX, you'd probably opt for weapons that are a optimization between Threat Range, damage and Crit Multiplier.

However, your argument is all backwards. Because BAB and DV increase incrementally with level, Finesse willl become harer and harer to make effective, but at the same time be capable of doing loads of damage without subtracting DR. Armour DR values being static, STR+AP attacks only stand to have a better and better change of penetrating and thus forcing Massive Damage saves as character levels increase. You've got it the wrong way round...

 

[Sutek]

As a complete side not, I found the answe4r to my own question by ...ahem...reading the book. (lol)

I had asked:
In the case of damaging armor, if I use a Finesse weapon and deal enough damage to equal 20+ compared to the armor's DR, does that reduce Armor DR? I could see it as cutting through strapps and softer materials rather than chopping through iron. Finesse weapons are described as ignoring Armor DR if the To Hit roll is successful and succeeds by equal to or higher than the Armor DR, but it seems only for purposes of damage reduction or not. In other words, you ignore the DR and don't subtract it from the gross damage to determine a net. However, the Armor Famage rules simply state that if enough damage is done to equal 20+ after DR, the armor takes 1d4 DR damage. I would think this doesn't happen when using Finesse weapons, but it could.

The answer is in the last paragraph of the Finesse rules. They never damage armour.

 

[Anonymous]

But in a encounter that is balanced for the level of the PC's (not that balance means as much in Conan as it does in DnD) then there can be no doubt that:

-if the opponents are in medium-heavy or heavy armor then finesse is nearly useless compared to Str, unless you can gain some advantage like having a couple of your friends grapple the other guy.

I disagree.

Let me give an example of 2 20th level Nomads who both wearing a DR 10 Armour. All else is the same.

To hit the Nomads gets a +20. To defend the Nomads get a +10 (total DV 20). So using Str, to hit the Nomad needs to get a 0 or better. However, the Nomad will get a -10 or possibly a -5 to damage.

(Average Damage - 10) x 1 or (Average Damage - 5) x 1

If the Nomad decides to Finesse. If he gets a 1 to 9 he still hits and gets a -10 to damage. If he rolls a 10 to 20, he hits with no minus to hit.

(Average Damage - 10) x .45 + Average Damage x.55

On average, finesse is statistically better. Unless you manage an AP of 10 there isn't even an argument for the above equations. If your AP is 10 or above, it will depend but unless you have considerably higher Str, finesse is still better.

If you look at the stats for high level NPCs in the RoK you will see that BAB will generally get around +10 higher than DV. This is intentional to get around escalting HP.

So I stick with my statement that all things being equal, unless your Str is considerably higher than Dex, finesse does become the better option as you go up levels under the current Conan system.

 

[Anonymous]

That's backwards. So what you're intending to do is have the DR of the armour reduce the AP of the weapon? It's not even backwards.... :?

Poorly worded maybe, though not backwards. "Reduced from" should have been "deducted from". To restate AP reduces the DR of Armour.

Now this may sound like I'm being awfully superior and condescending here, so I appologize up front, but you do realize that AP+STRB is a comparative thing and not actually subtractive to DR?

Yes, in the current system.

Using your examples:

Armour DR10
Weapon AP4 (removing the Str bonus in my house rule)
Wpn Dam 1d10
STR bonus +2 (assumed 1 handed)

Strike hits. AP is reduces the Armour DR to 6. The final damage is 1d10 + 2 - 6. For a total of 1d10 - 4.

Under the current system, the AP would be 6 as you would add the Str bonus in. So the end result would be 1d10 + 2 - 10. For a total of 1d10 - 8.

Armour DR5
Weapon AP4
Wpn Dam 1d10
STR bonus +2

Strike hits. AP is reduces the Armour DR to 1. The final damage is 1d10 + 2 - 1. The total would be 1d10 + 1.

Under the current system, the DR would become DR 2 as AP 6 equal or exceeds the DR. So the it would be 1d10 + 2 - 3. For a total of 1d10 - 1.

Where are you arriving ar "3 HP" and stuff?

Given that the maximum DR from armour is around DR12. A hi AP will grant you a maximum of 6 HP extra damage. In comparison, the house rules give you the advantage of AP all the time. Leaving aside small weapons, APs normally begin around 2 or 3. So the maximum penalty is around a 3 HP decrease.

Hence, in comparison, though the house rules do grant extra HP to those who fail to meet APs it will actually reduce hi Str wielders damage by up to 3 HP. As I mentioned, the current system gives hi Str wielders a double benefit in decreasing DR and then adding to damage. My problem with this is that the system effectively double pings low Str wielders in doing so. Not that this is necessarily a problem but I dislike seeing Str 16 warriors with a broad sword getting at max 3 HP against heavy armour. It makes armor too effective IMHO and I wanted to graduate the effect more.

And that's why small/light weapons are Finesse weapons in the Conan rules and large/heavy weapons are never Finesse weapons. You can't choose to Finesse with a Bill.

Let me put this idea to you another way. Which is better:

- a system which when applied to all weapons actually logically distinguishes between those that are to be used as finesse and those not; or

- a system that needs to make a seperate determination on each weapon as the same system is applied to all weapons it does not logically distinguish between those that are to be used as finesse and those not.

I prefer the first. Now I am not saying that I will be loosening the finesse rules. However, I did find that a useful side effect of the house rule that I suggested actually makes finesse such an intuitive process that it almost convinces me to be able to drop the need for seperate rulings on each weapon and go with simple logic.

However, your argument is all backwards. Because BAB and DV increase incrementally with level, Finesse willl become harer and harer to make effective.,

I think this is clearly incorrect as shown in a recent post to Argo.

but at the same time be capable of doing loads of damage without subtracting DR. Armour DR values being static, STR+AP attacks only stand to have a better and better change of penetrating and thus forcing Massive Damage saves as character levels increase.

I agree that DR is static and Str increase, so that as you go up levels you do have more chance to penetrate armour. However, you ignore 2 things. The first is that despite this, the increasing chance to hit overs levels (BAB increases faster than DV) finesse actually outweighs this increase (things being otherwise equal).

The second is that my house rule is designed to allow for the gradual effect of armour. What I don't like is how it presents such a huge barrier to low levels and non specialised combatants. The house rule is designed to address this. In doing so, I recognised that it does present a maximum -3 HP penalty to high Str combatants. However, in my view this is an acceptable cost as such characters already get bonuses to hit, DV and damage.

 

[Sutek]

But in a encounter that is balanced for the level of the PC's (not that balance means as much in Conan as it does in DnD) then there can be no doubt that:

-if the opponents are in medium-heavy or heavy armor then finesse is nearly useless compared to Str, unless you can gain some advantage like having a couple of your friends grapple the other guy.

I disagree.

Let me give an example of 2 20th level Nomads who both wearing a DR 10 Armour. All else is the same.

To hit the Nomads gets a +20. To defend the Nomads get a +10 (total DV 20). So using Str, to hit the Nomad needs to get a 0 or better. However, the Nomad will get a -10 or possibly a -5 to damage.

(Average Damage - 10) x 1 or (Average Damage - 5) x 1

If the Nomad decides to Finesse. If he gets a 1 to 9 he still hits and gets a -10 to damage. If he rolls a 10 to 20, he hits with no minus to hit.

(Average Damage - 10) x .45 + Average Damage x.55

On average, finesse is statistically better. Unless you manage an AP of 10 there isn't even an argument for the above equations. If your AP is 10 or above, it will depend but unless you have considerably higher Str, finesse is still better.

If you look at the stats for high level NPCs in the RoK you will see that BAB will generally get around +10 higher than DV. This is intentional to get around escalting HP.

So I stick with my statement that all things being equal, unless your Str is considerably higher than Dex, finesse does become the better option as you go up levels under the current Conan system.

Are they STR +11 Nomads? That's what they'd be by putting all available Stat advancements into STR. Same for DEX. That's negating Armor DR right there. No mater what, they'll be at -5 damage because of reduced DR. If they did not devote all Stat advances to STR, then they'd still be at STR +7. Not enough to exceed Amor DR alone, but combined with a weapon, potentially one suited for STR, he should have an AP of 3+, beating DR and reducing protection regardless.

STR attacking is optimal if you optimize for it. Same for DEX. Finesse strikes do more damage in shorter bursts whereas STR strikes do less damage, but do so more regularly than Finesse. They are both equal options edpendant on having a high DEX or STR to help pick whhich option is best.

However, the model you show above is flawed because it's only looking at a zero damage potential (model lacks STR mods and weapon damage as well as [STR mod + AP] as a factor against DR).

 

[Anonymous]

Are they STR +11 Nomads?

Str +11 is Str 32. You would need Str 18 at the start and at 20th Level (9 advancements) it would be 27 (+8). Using a weapon 2 handed would get you to +12.

I think if you need to have that much Strength to break the optimisation balance of finesse at higher levels I think I have proved my point

Again I recognise that increased Str or Dex will make normal attacks or finesse attacks more favourable, respectively. This is logical and I like it. However, under the current Conan system as you increase in levels the balance does swing toward to finesse to a point where a Str 20 Dex 16 fighter will actually prefer finesse over using their Str.

Your post also raises another one of my issues, which motivated my house rule suggestion. The current Armour rules really promote you max out in Str or Dex and nothing else. Personally, I prefer to system to give less benefit for maxing out. This would make well rounded PCs a more viable option.

STR attacking is optimal if you optimize for it. Same for DEX. Finesse strikes do more damage in shorter bursts whereas STR strikes do less damage, but do so more regularly than Finesse. They are both equal options edpendant on having a high DEX or STR to help pick whhich option is best.

Agree entirely. Look I am not fighting against the logic of Dex promoting finesse and Str promoting normal attacks. I like it. However, when doing my analysis I found that the system actually begins to favour finesse at higher levels unless Str is maxed out. Personally, I found that the house rule actually reinforced this balance by bringing the choice back down to simply the weapon used and the Str/Dex of the PC.

However, the model you show above is flawed because it's only looking at a zero damage potential (model lacks STR mods and weapon damage as well as [STR mod + AP] as a factor against DR).

It is limited, I agree. I even stated that in previous posts. However, it isn't flawed. It does show the swing of benefit to finesse unless you max out on Str. I find this a useful result.

 

[Anonymous]

Argo and Sutek, thanks for the responses. It has allowed me to fine tune my initial ideas and confirmed my final decision. However, I am going to bow out of this thread now. I have said my piece and I just don't have time to keep going over the same points.

To finish, I will restate my 2 house rules for others who come across this thread:

1. MD Saves are triggered on Critical Hits or, where a Critical Hit is not applicable, 20 HP of damage.

2. A weapon's AP is deducted from an Armour's DR directly. Str mod is no longer added in to AP.

Cheers. Have fun in Hyboria!

 

[argo]

And I churn out another stupid-long post. I think I need an intervention or something 8)

I disagree.

Let me give an example of 2 20th level Nomads who both wearing a DR 10 Armour. All else is the same.

To hit the Nomads gets a +20. To defend the Nomads get a +10 (total DV 20). So using Str, to hit the Nomad needs to get a 0 or better. However, the Nomad will get a -10 or possibly a -5 to damage.

Dear god no. For starters you are comparing a full BAB attacker against a medium Defense defender, so of course you are going to have more hits that way. Secondly you are simply counting class defense bonus and nothing else, anybody who relies only on his class bonus (espically at higher levels) is going to be meat. Sooner or later everyone has to try to boost their DV by means outside of their class bonus. We were supposed to be talking about a theoretical "balanced" encounter. An encounter where your first hit has a 95% chance of success is not what I consider balanced by any means.

Lets take a counter example. Two soldiers fighting each other (full BAB vs full DV). Right off the bat that is BAB 20 vs DV 25 (80% to hit). Now for the sake of argument I'll assume that the attacker's stat bonus to hit balances the defender's stat bonus to DV so that is a wash. But we can give the defender a large shield for DV 29 (60% to hit). And at upper levels its not unreasonable to expect a defender to put some extra thought into his defense so maybe he fights defensievly and that brings his DV to 31 (50% to hit). Of course the defender could easily have other bonuses, the parry feat or combat expertise, but the attacker could also have greater weapon focus or a superior weapon so I'll just handwave all that away and assume it mostly balances each other.

And that is for level 20, where the disparity between BAB and DV is at its greatest. At level 15 it is BAB 15 vs DV 21 (75%) without shield and DV 25 (55%) with. At level 10 it is BAB 10 vs DV 17 (70%) without shield and DV 21 (50%) with. At level 5 its BAB 5 and DV 13 (65%) without shield and DV 17 (45%) with. And at level 3 it is BAB3 vs DV 12 (60%) without shield and DV 16 (40%) with.

Now that is more what I consider a balanced encounter. A full BAB type should expect a 40%-60% chance of success on his first itterative attack. Now when working with those expectations it is easy to see that if the opponent has heavy armor, say DR 10 for making the math easy, then a finesse fighter who has a 70% chance of success on his highest attack only has a 20% chance of bypassing that armor. Which makes your equation look more like:

(Average Damage - 10) * .5 + (Average Damage) * .2

And since average damage for most finesse fighters is going to usually be <10 that means your expected average damage per round is

Average Damage * 0.2

Which is why I say a finesse fighter facing an opponent in heavy armor is totally screwed. Oh yeah, he can forget about his itterative attacks as well. Even on a nat 20 critical a finesse fighter still has to beat DV + DR to bypass armor and 20% - 25% = screwed.


Lets switch gears for a moment here.


Lets say that you don't agree with me that a balanced encounter means a 40%-60% chance of success. Lets say that you want to stick with your Nomad example. I can still prove to you that even if finesse is as effective as you think it is that it still isn't more effective than Str fighting.

Again, we are talking about heavy armor here so lets go with DR 10 (makes the numbers much easier). A finesse fighter who faces off against DR 10 and doesn't bypass it will almost certainly have his damage reduced to 0. IOW against heavy armor failing to bypass is equivalent to a miss. So a finesse fighter facing DR 10 just had his chance to hit and do damage reduced by 50% no matter what you think his origional odds should have been (95%, 60% whatever).

Now, a Str fighter facing the same DR 10 who is capable of penetrating that armor is instead facing DR 5. If he is using a two handed weapon he can PA for 2 and get an extra 4 damage which effectievly reduces the opponents DR to 1 and only costs the Str fighter a 10% chance to miss.

If he is weilding a one handed weapon that can penetrate (which probably means he is using a warhammer) then he can PA for 5 which is equivalent to the finesse fighter bypassing armor and it only costs him a 25% chance to miss.

If he is wielding a two handed weapon but cannot penetrate DR 10 then he can PA for 5, again this is equivalent to the finesse fighter bypassing armor, and it only costs him 25% chance to miss.

Lastly, if he is wielding a one handed weapon and cannot penetrate then he can PA for 10 (bypassing the armor) and it costs him the same 50% chance to miss that the finesse fighter is facing.

So in the worst case a Str fighter is no worse off than a finesse fighter. In most cases he is better off. And since we can reasonably expect a Str fighter to have a higher Str bonus to damage and use a weapon with a larger damage die (higher average damage) it is entierly possible that he can easily eat his opponent's DR and still do damage. Heck, he could even decline to PA at all and instead put everything in expertise and spring attack in and out hopping to eventually wear his opponent out with nicks and cuts, that is an option the finesse fighter does not have and options are power.

Heck, even using your Nomad example I would simply look at it and say that anybody who has a BAB of 20 and is facing a DV 20 is a moron if he doesn't put between 8 and 12 points into PA. Now he doesn't just have a 50% to hit he has a 50% chance to provoke a massive damage save. The finesse fighter can't do that, not because you can't use finesse and PA at the same time (you can), but because if he does then he drops his odds of hitting to about 50% which drops his odds of bypassing to 0%. Meaning he is back to (Average Damage + 20PA -10Dr) * .5 which will still hurt but most likely won't provoke a massive damage save. Most finesse fighters are completly incapable of provoking massive damage unless they are also sneak attackers (but that is a whole different breakdown right there).


Of course this is all based on fighting opponents in heavy armor. Against light or medium-light armor a finesse fighter's prospects look much better. He only suffers a 20% or 30% penalty on bypassing and even if he doesn't bypass he still might get a few points of damage through. However there is a good chance too that a Str fighter will be penetrating armor, which means that he will only take a -2 or -3 penalty to damage. So a finesse fighter facing light or medium-light armor is up by 2 or 3 points of damage vs a Str fighter. Which is probably the difference between the average damage of the finesse fighter and the Str fighter (highter Str, bigger damage die)

Which is why I say
-against opponents in no armor it doesn't matter, they die fast
-against opponents in light or medium-light armor finesse and Str are about equal. This IMO is what finesse fighting is meant for, to allow swashbucklers to keep up with jugernauts against medium-soft targets.
-against opponents in heavy armor Str is much better than finesse. At worst the two are on even footing again.


Make sense?

 

[argo]

I think if you need to have that much Strength to break the optimisation balance of finesse at higher levels I think I have proved my point

And my point is your model is incomplete. Finesse is not optimized over Str at high levels or any other levels. You are pushing finesse to its limits (beyond it limits IMHO) and ignoring even half the advantages of Str fighting.

Believe me. If there was any way to munchkin more damage per round out of the system I'd be all over it :wink: I'm sick like that.

But I explained all this in my post above anyway.

Good luck.

 

[Sutek]

Yes. It's not a question of excessive damage, it's a question of your not even taking into account the normal +1 to all stats every 6th level. My examples need not have a character starting with 18 in the relevant stat, bumped up to 20th level, in order to prove my point.

Besides that, you're doing the same thing by trying to show an example of a maximum level charget under false pretense and an imaginary, "never to occur" situation.

I'll say this one last thing: It's your game; do with it what you will as long as you have fun. That's the main thing. I jsut think that you're robbing your players of the true hack-fest that Conan is right out of the book...

:?

No hard feelings, and have fun yourself...

 

[sbarrie]

It seems to me that the Strength fighters gets all the good feats (e.g. Power attack, and, well, that's all they need). A new feat could help balance the two ways of fighting, something like "Improved Finesse" to halve the amount by which you need to beat an opponent's defense to bypass armour, or reduce the amount by your Intelligence bonus.

 

[Sutek]

It'd be nice if Bow and Arrow was considered a Finesse weapon. 2-4 pounds max for the Bow and 30 arrows for around 2 pounds....seems light to me. Arrows were historically only good at ripping through soft armour unless the shooter went for exposed bits like the neck or belly.

Probably wouldn't ever be changed though, so...

General

• Combat Reflexes
• Striking Cobra
  [*]Weapon Focus
  [*]Web of Death
  [*]Zingaran Surprise (Zingaran only)

Those would all be ideal for someone with an high DEX and using a Finesse weapon (or two).

I know the Swashbuckler alternate Class in the D&D3.5 Complete Warrior book uses a Feat like the one you mention where the character can add his INT bonus to attack rolls with a chosen weapon. He either gets to pick one weapon once and stick with it for that ability or can pick a new weapon ever 6 levels - can't remember which.