Too many HP?

[argo]

Also, how does Unearthed Arcanan suggest that the pool be replenished? It might make the difference in whether I use that system or the one I came up with above (or some variation thereof).

Nearly forgot to answer this. The pool heals natrually at the same rate as, and simeltaneous with, natural HP healing. Fruthermore, any effect which heals HP restores an equal number of RP free of charge. If you use RP in Conan you may want to scale back the rate of natural healing in Conan to keep you players from bouncing back to their feet faster than indian rubber balls. But like I said I haven't playtested this myself and I don't intend to as I feel the stock Conan rules are just fine. However Reserve Points do seem to be a good system and were suggested as a variant for campagins with little/no magical healing so they should work our well for Conan.

Later

 

[Zul-Daire]

The PC's my characters are on the high HP scale and ahve decent to good DR.

They they take their fair share of lumps.

A couple of the guys in the group DM DnD campaigns as well and were concerned about challenge ratings and the like.

The way I saw it some encounters might be easy some might be difficult, or just right. Hell some you just might have to run from.

But almost every time the party goes up against superior numbers well armed everyone assumes the worst or thinks (without voicing their opinions) that I have made the encounter to difficult ot near impossible to survive but some how they always mangage to pull it off.

Of course they are beaten to hell and 1-2 of them has to rest for a day ot two. :twisted:

I must admit sometimes I wonder if I am making an encounter to tough but then overcoming easy challenges time after time is boring.

 

[Anonymous]

Actually, substituting CON instead of the 20pt break for causing Massive Damage makes sense if creatures are taken into the equation. Look at a few though, CON is low. However, if in the instances where the FORT save bonus doesn't match the creature's CON bonus, if the values are added together it works out nicely.

Ex1: Ghouls are CON 13 creatures, but their FORT saves are +6. This bonus is obviously high for a CON 13, so the numbers added together would give the Massive Damage threshold of 19 for Ghouls.

Ex2: Earth Elementals are CON 17 and FORT +17 for crying out loud!!! They have DR14, but that makes characters who deal 34pts of damage potentially capable of knocking them unconcious in one blow. However, if the values for CON and FORT are added together, a Massive Damage threshold of 34 is arrived at, meaning that, accounting for the DR17 as well, more than 51pts of damage are needed to deliver Massive Damage to one of these things (34pts above the DR17 of the creature rather than 20pts above as indicated in the book).

Comments?

In Unearthed Arcana there are many different ways to deal with Massive Damage Threshold.
I understand that using only CON can be detrimental for creatures.
One of the rules in Unearthed Arcana is:

MDT = CON + 2*HD +/- 10 for every size category larger or smaller than medium.
This rule is nice since it takes into account all one would expect from the "robustness" of a creature, due to its innate constitution, sheer size and general thoughness.

Please note that UA considers as hit dice also class hit dice.

My variant consists in the fact that I only consider RACIAL hit dice. Therefore, for medium size humans MDT =CON (humans have no racial hit dice), but for creatures no!
Let us see some creatures from the CONAN book:

Bear: MDT=19+2*6+10=41
Boar: MDT=17+2*3=23
Earth elemental: MDT=16+2*20+30=86

For creatures without a CON score (typically constructs and undead) I would suggest using STR (a measure of the "resilience" with which they are built) or CAR (for incorporeal creatures, a measure of their "presence")
I use these rules since many months also in standard D&D, and they work quite well, especially since they put a dose of healthy respect also in apparently "lowly" creatures!

Cheers,
Antonio

 

[Sutek]

Maybe I'm just jaded from all my years of twinkage but to me this all seems like prety basic stuff. 8) Not really the kind of thing you have to be a "min/maxer" to engage in. Everything I have shown you here will work more or less on auto-pilot once you explain it the first time.

I gotcha. That's just what min-maxers always say... :wink:

I jest, but you gotta see that my point was actually that you can't use the terms "average character" and "twink" and come up with any sort of viable mean. Without mentioning 2 handed weapon and Class and all that it leaves your blamket statement open to interpretation.

However, I'd never considered using the circumstance bonus applied and all that as a "barometer" by which to guage the optimal ammount to use on PA. Neat advice.

Also very nice to hear of someone else making characters that use Bardiches...:lol:

 

[Anonymous]

Wow! Lots of replies and lots to think about.

If anyone is interested I decided against VP/WP as it was just too complex as it required adding and fiddling with the existing rules and I like the Conan ideas on the whole.

Instead, I have come up with two simple house rules that just modify the application of two rules that I find a little too arbitrary.

1. AP is a damage bonus when weapons are used as normal (opposed to finesse). AP damage is not multiplied on a critical.

This means that you get some benefit from AP even if you don't reach the DR threshold. I just found that someone with 7 AP having no advantage over someone with 1 AP against a DR of 8 a little too arbitrary. Also, this should make things simpler in play in that you don't need to compare AP and DR on each hit.

Sure it does make weapons a little more deadly but that is OK by me

2. Massive Damage saves are triggered on Criticals not at 20 HP damage.

I like MD saves but find the 20 HP a little arbitrary. Daggers can almost never cause MD saves even on a critical where big weapons can without a critical. Also 20 HP is different for someone with 10 HP than someone with 100 HP. By linking MD saves to criticals, it makes more sense to me.

Again, I find this simpler as it consolidates the idea of a critical and MD into 1 thing. It does make lighter weapons more deadly but makes larger weapons less deadly.

Thanks for the responses.

 

[Sutek]

1. AP is a damage bonus when weapons are used as normal (opposed to finesse). AP damage is not multiplied on a critical.

This means that you get some benefit from AP even if you don't reach the DR threshold. I just found that someone with 7 AP having no advantage over someone with 1 AP against a DR of 8 a little too arbitrary. Also, this should make things simpler in play in that you don't need to compare AP and DR on each hit.

I don't understand your example here.

If DR is 8, both AP1 and AP7 may penetrate given a high enough STR bonus. Remember that you add STR bonus to AP in order to bypass DR of armor, so in the latter case, an AP7 weapon need only be in the hands of a STR +2 character for that 8DR to be ignored. If someone is using a mere AP1 weapon, they shouldn't expect to chop through armor in the same way, it's just that simple.

Further, if DR is bypassed, then no DR is deducted from the damage roll. Finesse weapons manage this by rolling high, whereas AP weapons manage it through brute force and do it better in the hands of stronger people.

Now, if you mean that you feel the AP values seem arbitrary and don't reflect the weapons themselves, that's something different. My recollection is that they all seemed accurate, but I'll give it another look or three.

2. Massive Damage saves are triggered on Criticals not at 20 HP damage.

I like MD saves but find the 20 HP a little arbitrary. Daggers can almost never cause MD saves even on a critical where big weapons can without a critical. Also 20 HP is different for someone with 10 HP than someone with 100 HP. By linking MD saves to criticals, it makes more sense to me.

Again, I find this simpler as it consolidates the idea of a critical and MD into 1 thing. It does make lighter weapons more deadly but makes larger weapons less deadly.

No, no, no. A dagger is a Finesse weapon and if the charcter rolls high enough, the stike will ignore Armor DR. This can be brutal. In the right hands (someone with a high DEX bonus) Daggers can be just as nasty as a battle axe.

The example of "20 HP is different for someone with 10 HP than someone with 100 HP", while true, is exactly the point of the MD rule. It means that if someone has 200hp and a DR of 8, if a single blow deals 28+ points of damage (20 points over the DR and therefore at the MD threshold) the individual suffering the blow must make a FORT save or be dying, regardless of all those remaining HP. Even if you don't crit you can kill targets in one blow by having a high total damage. Because this is marginally progressive with Class Level (as Argo pointed out via feat augmentation of damage max) it increases the changes of delivering a MD blow as a character advances. However, the beauty of it is that you don't have to be high level to bring someone down in one shot. That's what Massive Damage is all about. If you link it to Crits, even Classes that don't excell in dishing out damage get the same chance as those who do.

I think you need to re-read it and try it from the book before you augment the rules. It sounds like you're still missing the danger level here.

 

[Anonymous]

If DR is 8, both AP1 and AP7 may penetrate given a high enough STR bonus.

I was including the Str bonus. Someone with an overall AP of 7 has no advantage over someone with an overall AP of 1 against a DR of 8.

Now, if you mean that you feel the AP values seem arbitrary and don't reflect the weapons themselves, that's something different.

No. I am referring to the fact that if the max overall AP of your group is 7 then going up against an opponent with a DR of 8 is significantly more difficult than someone with a DR of 7. I find that weapons drop almost completely in effectiveness at point x to be a little too arbitrary and a difficulty when creating challenges. I much prefer a gradual decline to reflect that though someone may not have an AP of x they still have a decent AP.

No, no, no. A dagger is a Finesse weapon and if the charcter rolls high enough, the stike will ignore Armor DR. This can be brutal. In the right hands (someone with a high DEX bonus) Daggers can be just as nasty as a battle axe.

Agree. However, it will never be able to cause an MD save even on a critical given the damage. What the two mods do effectively is to slightly decrease the damage of finesse but increase the chance of a one shot hit. I like the balance better.

The example of "20 HP is different for someone with 10 HP than someone with 100 HP", while true, is exactly the point of the MD rule. It means that if someone has 200hp and a DR of 8, if a single blow deals 28+ points of damage (20 points over the DR and therefore at the MD threshold) the individual suffering the blow must make a FORT save or be dying, regardless of all those remaining HP.

I agree with all this. My beef is that if I do 19 HP of damage the effect is little but when I breach the magic threshold of 20 HP the effects increase dramatically. Again there is this point x that needs to be reached rather than a gradual increase.

I personally find having two concepts - criticals and massive damage - trying to do the same thing but in different ways a little confusing. I find that by tying them together based on the quality of the hit given the weapon and not the quantity is much smoother.

IIRC Conan was taken down by a lucky slingshot in "Shadows in the Moonlight".

Even if you don't crit you can kill targets in one blow by having a high total damage. Because this is marginally progressive with Class Level (as Argo pointed out via feat augmentation of damage max) it increases the changes of delivering a MD blow as a character advances. However, the beauty of it is that you don't have to be high level to bring someone down in one shot. That's what Massive Damage is all about. If you link it to Crits, even Classes that don't excell in dishing out damage get the same chance as those who do.

I agree but that is kind of the point. I don't like how at higher levels HP become something to circumvent as a new system kicks in. I don't like how MD saves are rare at low levels and then suddenly very common at high levels. I prefer to see the two things more integrated.

Overall, I like having MD saves more omnipresent without being more common. I also like how a knife can take someone out in one hit even if the chance is very small.

FYI I do note that BAB increases faster than DV increases over levels. So Criticals do become more common as you increase in level. However, Criticals become easier and this is countered by increasing HP and Fortitude values.

 

[Shonuff]

Remember that you add STR bonus to AP in order to bypass DR of armor, so in the latter case, an AP7 weapon need only be in the hands of a STR +2 character for that 8DR to be ignored.

Further, if DR is bypassed, then no DR is deducted from the damage roll.

"If a character is struck by a weapon whose total Armour Piercing score equals or exceeds the Damage Reduction score of his armour, then the Damage Reduction provided by the armour is halved (rounded down) for purposes of that blow." -- Conan RPG page 163

AP does not bypass armour, it halves its DR for that blow.
Only finesse attacks can ignore armour.

 

[Anonymous]

AP does not bypass armour, it halves its DR for that blow.
Only finesse attacks can ignore armour.

I should explain is that my overall beef is with the setting of "x points".

Armour significantly reduces the effectiveness of weapons other than finesse weapons unless the AP meets the "x point". Massive Damage only kicks in when you reach a "x point".

The reason I dislike it is that often they don't make sense. Again 20 HP means different things to different people. Why should 19 HP be so much less effective. Also, they making writing scenarios much more difficult than an intuitive gradual system. When an x point is reached things change dramatically.

I am not saying everyone needs to agree with me. However, I found Armour to be just too effective. I also found I didn't like that smaller weapons had no potential at all to take people down with 1 hiteven if that chance was very small based on a magical 20HP.

 

[Tristan]

Have you considered sneak attacks? A very deadly thing for those who might rely on smaller weapons and such. Massive damage generators.

And really, the fellow that has AP 7 probably has some strength bonus that will add to his damage mod so he does have an advantage over the fellow with AP 1 who obviously has no bonus.

The threshold is made sensible by the fact that HP is a measure of what kind of endurance the character has. Damage below the threshold should be considered as light cuts and fatigue, things like your 19 a particularly nasty cut perhaps which wear down the fighter over time. Things over the threashold of 20 would be more perilous wounds...smashes to the guts, blows to the helm, the severity of which could be gauged by how much the damage exceeded the threashold. Mind you these injuries are all severe enough to be potentially deadly and the way the system is built it makes a great deal of sense. Guys in full plate shouldn't be dropping like flies to Picts who are breaking their copper axes on the armour, that's the point of the armour. Sneaky picts or picts who finesse their war spears into a knights neck or through an arm pit however, are probably going to do the job. :twisted:

 

[SableWyvern]

Tristan: the point being made (if I can speak for Hal) is as follows:

Consider character A: Weapon AP 1, +0 Str bonus = 1.

Character B: Weapon AP 4, +3 Str bonus = 7.

Against armour of DR 0 or 1, both combatants are on an equal footing.

Against armour of DR 2-7, Character B is at an advantage.

Against armour of DR 8+, both characters are again on equal footing.

While I'm not sure if this "problem" is serious enough to warrant a new rule (I certainly don't think that converting AP to a simple damage add is a good idea), I can see how some people would find this problematic.

 

[SableWyvern]

My reasoning for disliking the treatment of AP as a straight modifier to damage is that it would be just as appropriate to up the die type in this instance. Certainly, I can see such a ruling changing many of the underlying assumptions upon which the entire system was put together.

A better ruling, IMO, might be:

Total AP/2 (round up) cancels an equal amount of DR. This allows particularly heavy weapons to completely ignore lighter armour types, and lighter weapons to have some affect on heavier armour types. This takes care of both the first and third instances listed above. Where total AP = DR, the effect is identical the original rule.

Disclaimer: It's probably worth mentioning that I haven't actually played Conan yet, nor do I even own the rulebook (something I will be correcting in the very near future -- perhaps even in the next few minutes). 8)

 

[Sutek]

Well, by the same logic, throw HP out the window altogether. After all, it's an artificail and arbitrary Hit Die that generates it. Right?

I'll preface this gripe by saying that (A) I generally come off as an ass at times like this and it's not intentional and (B) I think changing rules before you play them is incredibly shor-sighted, but you folks have your own games and can run them how you see fit.

By saying "bypass armor" I meant that AP functions to "chop through" DR. This doesn't ignore armor, that's why ther are Finesse Weapons.

A finesse weapon in the hands of a character capable of a sneak attack can deal an enormous ammout of damage, and probably at a lower level, causing Massive Damage.

Yes, an AP1 guy and an AP7 guy cannot beat through a DR8 armor guy, no matter how much they pound. Except, the DR is only a reduction in damage and if they do enough damage, they can still bring him down by attrition or smart fighting. As a matter of fact, if one of them lands a blow that deals 28pts of damage, the DR8 guy has to make a MD save...doesn't matter that they couldn't chop through his armor.

If you don't like the static 20 for MD, look back through this thread where someone suggested using CON. That makes it more variable. It doesn't work for monsters tought because some of them have metaphysical properties that increase thier FORT saves above what their CON reflects and vice versa. Ghouls are only CON 13, which is crap, but they have a +6 FORT. This would give a Ghoul a MD thresh of 19. If that disparity exists, adding the two together seems to work in principle, although I've not tried it yet.

Crits facilitate MD, but they should not be the only way to arrive at MD or you limit the number of occurances of it severly. AP as a damage add isn't a fix, it's ignoring the function of AP and DR in the game.

Here's my beef: Each time 20+ damage is inflicted on armor it's DR is reduced by -1d4. So, not only does such a blow force a MD Save, but it also reduces DR. It should probably be Crits that reduce Armor DR thereby making total damage above that value, and thus MD strikes, that much easier.

 

[SableWyvern]

I haven't said I'm going to change the rules in my game at all. In fact, I stated my lack of detailed knowledge up front so that my opinion could be given appropriate consideration (or lack thereof).

Nevertheless, I can still see where Hal is coming from. The fact is that, in the situations presented, (unless rules have been left out of this discussion that I'm not aware of), in a wide range on instances AP 1 and AP 7 have identical affects. I offer a potential solution, for those who are looking for one, that might or might not work. People who want such a solution are free to evaluate, use, discard or modify as they see fit.

Will I actually change things in my game? Who knows?


Edit: BTW, I don't see a problem with changing a rule before it is used. I've done so on many occasions, with many systems, with much success. Changing things before you've actually read at least the bulk of the rules in question, OTOH ... that is definitely asking for trouble.

 

[Sutek]

Edit: BTW, I don't see a problem with changing a rule before it is used. I've done so on many occasions, with many systems, with much success. Changing things before you've actually read at least the bulk of the rules in question, OTOH ... that is definitely asking for trouble.

Yeah, my response was more to Hal that you.

The fact that both MD threshold and Armor Damage threshold are both 20 seems to indicate that the value isn't arbitrary. I don't recall that being a threshold in terms of damage for other things, but I'll dig about a bit more. Seems to me, they did that for simplicity sake: something bad happens when you do 20+ points of damage to someone after DR is deducted.

The difference is that armor can take damage even if DR is never reduced by AP.

 

[SableWyvern]

Hmm ... I'd almost be inclined to see if there wasn't a relatively simple way of having a weapon's AP affect damage to armour. That would solve both Hal's and your problem in one. Don't know that it's too feasible, however, without either crippling low-AP or overpowering high-AP.

As a side note, I'm busily engaging in this discussion because it distracts me from long wait for my Conan rulebook to arrive (apparently -- and quite frustratingly -- it's currently on its way to Cost-U-MOR, over in the UK).

 

[SableWyvern]

Oh, and I'd certainly agree that the magic value of 20 was arrived at after some thought and consideration by our Mongoose friends, and not simply the number of unwashed mugs in someone's kitchen.

 

[Sutek]

Hmm ... I'd almost be inclined to see if there wasn't a relatively simple way of having a weapon's AP affect damage to armour. That would solve both Hal's and your problem in one. Don't know that it's too feasible, however, without either crippling low-AP or overpowering high-AP.

I think that if you tried orking AP into armor damage you'll have to come up with hit points for armor and then you're bogging down the time you could spen hacking. :lol:

I think that armor falibity should not be soley connected to brutal damage being dealt, but at least Mongoose is consistant.

Bearing that in mind, I could see these two alternatives to what's in the book working out nicely:

• Armor DR is reduced by -1d4 if a critical hit is scored. This option creates s situation where players both want the Crit and don't so they can get the cool armor.
• Armor DR is reduced by 1 for each multiple of DR inflicted. For example, take a Mail Shirt, DR5. If 10pts are inflicted, it loses 1 pt of DR after that blow. If 25pts of damage are dealt, the DR is reduced to 0 afterwards. The DR would still count for that blow, in other words, just not for blows subsequent to the damaging one.

The former one is more mechanical and makes damaging armor just as easy for everyone in the game. A Scholar with a stick can roll a Crit and shread armor. While not enirely realistic, it does add an element of chance to wearing armor so that players won't become reliant on it always protecting them with the notion, "I have DR 10 armor so these guys can't even hurt me." To be fair though, that's exactly what the book says armor is supposed to do: make people almost invulnerable.

The latter case is more bookeeping than I'd like to deal with and it also epleats armor rapidly. If you're dealing with 4-5 PCs and 20+ mooks, the Crit depletion method I suggest or the "20+ damage" method in the book are much easier to deal with and keep play moving.

 

[SableWyvern]

My original thoughts for involving AP in armour damage were more along the lines of increasing the level at which armour damage occured, but adding AP to the damage dealt for these purposes.

Hence my thoughts that it could overpower high AP or cripple low AP. It also adds yet another seperate value to be calculated with each hit ... and my sense at this stage is that Conan doesn't really need much more of that.

Another option would be to tie the weapons AP into the damage dealt - eg, armour takes damage = to AP/3. In this case, though, apart from any basic balance considerations, your problem of massive damage and armour damage always occuring simultaneously is still not dealt with.

 

[Sutek]

My original thoughts for involving AP in armour damage were more along the lines of increasing the level at which armour damage occured, but adding AP to the damage dealt for these purposes.

Something like Armor DR squared or something? That was something that occured to me, but I couldnt' rationalize the really high values of all the hauberks.

Another solution might be to have AP that doesn't penetrate (like in Hal's AP1 versus AP7 on DR8 conundrum) dish out subdual damage. In fact, if AP dealt subdual damage regardless of actual damage, you could pound someone into submission by simple overwhelming them with tiny blows, eventually exhausting them and "ringing thier bell".

Example:
Hal's AP7 guy against a DR8 armor guy deals a blow that generates 22 points of damage. Thats a net of 14 HP of damage dealt because of the DR8 reducing it. However, DR8 guy also takes 7pts of subdual damage too.

Hal's AP1 guys gets his strike next and deals 11pts of damage, net 3 and 1 pont of Subdual.

The damage on DR8 guys now stands at -17HP and -9 subdual.

Say that after DR8 guy gets his licks in and combat comes back to AP7 guy, AP7 guys lands a shot that only deals 5 points of damage. Say it's a crap roll; happens to everyone. Well, the DR8 stops it cold and no HP damage is dealt by that strike, however, it still hit and so the blow deals 7pts of subdual now putting DR8 guy at -17HP and -16 subdual.

You'd still look at the results of each damage track separately (don't total them for -33pts or something like that) but this way heavy weapons can rattle someone's cage even tough they mightn't be capable of slicing through it.

Whatcha think?