Too many HP?

[SableWyvern]

Hmmm ...

That could almost work.

Problem is, from the PCs' perspective, dishing out subdual damage is virtually as effective as lethal damage. The target still goes down after the same amount of total damage.

Unless subdual works differently in Conan than elsewhere.

 

[SableWyvern]

Ok, I note you said keep the two values completely seperate ... what does the subdual achieve then?

 

[Sutek]

Sorry. "Subdual" damage is the term in Spycraft/Starget with which I'm currently most proficient. What I meant is "non-lethal" and it's on page 173. Typically dealt via Unarmred combat or environmental effects, non-lethal damage is tracked and accrued separately from HP tracking, but non-lethal damage is measured against your current HP total you are Staggered when they are equal and knocked unconcious when NLD exceeds you current HP.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Sutek and SableWyvern for all the comments. Sutek I actually appreciate your hardnosed comments as I would like to test this as vigourous as possible.

As it stands, I still prefer MD Saves triggered on Criticals or 20 HP (for damage that cannot cause crits). I do recognise that this rules makes the game more lethal. This is intentional. If it helps I am likely to add a mook rule that mook criticals don't get the MD save.

I have come to realise that with this rule only that I could return to the AP/DR rules as written as attacking with small weapons does remain a possible option (especially with finesse) as you can get a critical and get an MD save.

So, I am wavering on the AP damage add I am considering a return to the existing system. However, I am still considering subtracting the AP of the weapon (no Str mod added) from the DR. This is a similar result to Sablewyvern's AP/2 DR reduction in effect. The result means that a little AP is still useful without taking away the advantage of armour. However, it does proportionally reduce the benefit received by high Strength PCs which is driven out of the doubling penalty of DR.

 

[Sutek]

...I actually appreciate your hardnosed comments...

That may be the first time anyone has ever said that... :shock:
It makes me feel are warm and toasty inside...

As it stands, I still prefer MD Saves triggered on Criticals or 20 HP (for damage that cannot cause crits). I do recognise that this rules makes the game more lethal. This is intentional. If it helps I am likely to add a mook rule that mook criticals don't get the MD save.

I think if you're trying to make that distinction then you're going to continue to be a little befuddled. AP reducing DR and Finesse ignoring it are not fundamental to the combat system, but if you toss those concepts you may as well toss MD and AP and, for that matter, Crits and Armor Damage. They are all linked in a way, IMO.

I am wavering on the AP damage add I am considering a return to the existing system. However, I am still considering subtracting the AP of the weapon (no Str mod added) from the DR. This is a similar result to Sablewyvern's AP/2 DR reduction in effect. The result means that a little AP is still useful without taking away the advantage of armour. However, it does proportionally reduce the benefit received by high Strength PCs which is driven out of the doubling penalty of DR.

You mean subtracting AP on each blow? Like I have AP7 to your DR8 and I do 20 points of damage then 19 get through instead of 12?

I think if you look at it like....if I had gotten 28 (20 above DR) then you take 24 (reducing my 20 by half the DR of your armor, or 4).

Different topic:
I may put this in another thread but since it's tangentially related I'll mention it here too, In the case of damaging armor, if I use a Finesse weapon and deal enough damage to equal 20+ compared to the armor's DR, does that reduce Armor DR? I could see it as cutting through strapps and softer materials rather than chopping through iron. Finesse weapons are described as ignoring Armor DR if the To Hit roll is successful and succeeds by equal to or higher than the Armor DR, but it seems only for purposes of damage reduction or not. In other words, you ignore the DR and don't subtract it from the gross damage to determine a net. However, the Armor Famage rules simply state that if enough damage is done to equal 20+ after DR, the armor takes 1d4 DR damage. I would think this doesn't happen when using Finesse weapons, but it could.

 

[Anonymous]

You mean subtracting AP on each blow? Like I have AP7 to your DR8 and I do 20 points of damage then 19 get through instead of 12?

I think if you look at it like....if I had gotten 28 (20 above DR) then you take 24 (reducing my 20 by half the DR of your armor, or 4).

Yes. The only difference is that I am removing Strength from the AP so as not to double up on the effects of Strength (also a Damage Bonus).

I note that most weapons have an AP of 1 to 3 with a few larger going up to 8. Light Armours average DR4, Medium DR6 and Heavy DR10. So the end result is that against a comparable weapon a residual DR of around 3 remains. This produces a similar result to the existing system in retaining a DR even with comparable APs.

If you find it interesting, I have ran a few statistics with Knife, Broad Sword and the Bill at Str 10, 14 and 18.

The end results were not that all that different from the existing system varying only -2 to +3 HP average at any single DR. High Strength against high DRs takes a largest hit as they loose the double impact of Strength the current system has. However, the mid range looks much better IMO as the result does mean that the weapons gradually decline in power and don't cease to be effective at point x.

I am going away to statistically compare the balance with finesse.

 

[Sutek]

But a mere 6th level Barbarian can easily be at 22STR (rolled 18, +2 for Cimmerian, plus two adds at 4th and 6th). That's a +6 STR bonus right there, hacking through DR8 easily with an average AP weapon value of 2.

I think you're looking at this from a low character level perspective. At low-middle levels and higher, Massive Damage comes into it much more readily.

 

[Anonymous]

But a mere 6th level Barbarian can easily be at 22STR (rolled 18, +2 for Cimmerian, plus two adds at 4th and 6th). That's a +6 STR bonus right there, hacking through DR8 easily with an average AP weapon value of 2.

True. However, the benefit will only be a reduction of 4 to the DR. Which will be roughly the same benefit as the same Barbarians likely weapon. So the results are similar. The Barbarian will loose a 1 or 2 HP average against DR of 7 and 8 but gain 2 or 3 HP average against DR 9 and 10. This is fine by me.

If it is of interest, I compared the finesse using the Knife, Broad Sword and Bill.

Where BAB and DV are even the Knife is always better with Finesse, the Broad Sword around DR 6 and the Bill never.

Where BAB exceeds DV by 5 the Knife is always better with Finesse, the Broad Sword around DR 5 and the Bill never.

Where BAB exceeds DV by 10 the Knife is always better with Finesse, the Broad Sword around DR 4 and the Bill around DR 11.

This seems reasonable balanced and will mean that Finesse will be based on whether you have a high Dex or not. I liked this idea as it means I can probably drop the restrictions on what can be used as a finesse weapon and simply allow players to apply the logic of the system.

BTW the current system basically makes finesse always better option except at low levels or where there is exceptional Strength.

 

[Sutek]

What model didi you use for the knife/sword/bill tests? A bill is 2handed and so does 150% damage, giving the Barbarian I mentioned above a +9 bonus from STR plus the bill's AP of 6. That's atotal of +15 to compare to DR to determine piercing. I'm not sure where you're getting you low values of 7 and 8 and so on. :?

Also, in your statistical breakdown, what are you trying to arrive at? If you'r efactoring in BAB in the model, I assume you're looking for if a Crit is a reasonable method of causing MD.

By the book, Massive Damage is only a factor of damage rolled. The Barbarian above with a Bill can deal 11-26 points of damage with a total AP factor of 15. All armor DRs are going to be useless and rendered to half, even if he only rolls minimum damage. He's also more apt to do Massive Damage to lightly armored opponents because of this fact.

If you make MD an affect of the die roll and rolling a Crit, MD will occur at the same percentage regardless of BAB or damage generated. There will always be that 5% chance of doing MD unlike in the book where it's harder if you are weak agianst tough armor or easier if you are strong against weak armor.

A 6th Level Thief in the same stat area but in DEX (like a 22DEX +6 bonus) will likely be getting lots of Finesse attacks in successfully and with a knife as his Sneak Attack Style weapon (1d4 damage) will do 4-28 damage, not counting any STR bonus he may have, all with a good potential to ignore armor DR entirely.

It's not that Finesse weapons are better at low levels, they are always better at higher BAB where a high DEX is also a factor.

 

[argo]

Wow, I step out for a day and you kids throw a party. Tsk tsk :wink:

At any rate I don't think I'll write another paper this time as Sutek has actually already made most of the points I would have. So I'll just constrain myself to saying that I also think that Hal's proposed changes would do more harm than good and respectfully suggest that he try playing a few sessions with the stock rules just to see how they shake out in actual play. If you still don't like them then of course you are always free to change your game but you will be better perpared to make those changes having actually seen where the strengths and weaknesses of the system lie. Personally I find Conan's Armor DR/AP/Massive Damage system to be one of the most finely balanced combat engines I've ever seen. But thats just me.

Though I will comment on this:

BTW the current system basically makes finesse always better option except at low levels or where there is exceptional Strength.

No it doesn't, its a tradeoff. Remember how finesse attacks work. If your attack roll equalls or exceedes the enemy's DV + DR then you ignore his DR. If you equall or exceede his DV but by less than DV + DR you subtract his full DR from your damage. Roll poorly and you suddenly find your effectiveness severly reduced. And if the opponent's DR is high enough that upper value, DV + DR, could be very difficult to hit. In contrast a Str fighter knows that if his AP + STR is high enough that he will ignore half his opponent's armor every time, period end of story. And with a little expierence any fighter should be able to estimat weither or not he will be able to penetrate his opponent's armor just by seeing what his opponent is wearing and knowing what his own weapon is. Being a finesse fighter means trading the certanity of lower average damage for the uncertanity of a higher max damage. Add to that the fact that the Conan system has plenty of other bennies for having a high Str (Parry does not limit Str mod for heavy armor, PA/massive damage strategies, physical skills that depend on Str) and you have a system that places the high Str/THF squarely on top of the heap. What finesse fighting does do is allow other character builds to remain a viable alternative to the juggernaut build.

Later

 

[Anonymous]

What model didi you use for the knife/sword/bill tests?

Due to complexity, I did keep things relatively simple. I think I mentioned these but my assumptions were:

1. The model only compared average damage for the Knife, Broadsword and Bill and I took into account 150% damage bonus due to 2 hands.
3. I did a model for Str 10, 14 and 18.
4. I did not include Criticals or MD saves.

For the finesse models I did 3 models for BAB even to DV, 5 more and 10 more.

This is by no means perfect but when I put the three models together in each case it certainly shows the overall trend emerging that can be used for extrapolation.

Oh and I didn't bother trying to make models for those with hi Dex and low Str or vice versa. By establishing the base line where they are equal, I found it easy enough to extrapolate the benefits of such.

 

[Anonymous]

No it doesn't, its a tradeoff. Remember how finesse attacks work. If your attack roll equalls or exceedes the enemy's DV + DR then you ignore his DR. If you equall or exceede his DV but by less than DV + DR you subtract his full DR from your damage. Roll poorly and you suddenly find your effectiveness severly reduced.

It is a trade off. First, my statistical analysis is limited to purely average HP caused as I have said. Second, finesse effects the average damage by increasing that damage in exchange for a decrease to the chance to hit. As such, you can determine the effects of finesse on average damage. Third, it is a given that hi Dex promotes finesse and hi Str promotes otherwise. To what extent I didn't test in any detail.

On saying all that, when I ran through the results they suggested to me that except where a PC had high Strength compared to Dex, finesse became the number 1 option as PCs increased in level.

 

[argo]

On saying all that, when I ran through the results they suggested to me that except where a PC had high Strength compared to Dex, finesse became the number 1 option as PCs increased in level.

What can I say, all my studies show the exact opposite.

1) The number crunching I did when I first got the game says that for low DR opponents (like DR 4 or 6) the two work out about the same because the 2 or 3 points of DR that finesse bypasses that Str doesn't is about the difference in damage die between a finesse and non-finesse weapon. For bigger DR (like DR 9 or 12) Str is unquestionably the way to go as I dont' really think many characters have a high enough attack bonus to hit DV + 12 for most opponents they face (or if they do, then they are high enough over their opponent that this argument is reall a non-issue) and since most finesse weapons damage die won't get past DR 10 the finesse fighter is royally screwed. The only time where finesse is better than Str is if you have a weapon with such a low AP that you can't penetrate your opponent's DR but your attack bonus is high enough over his DV that you can reliably finesse you way past the armor. Of course, that situation comes up a lot in any good game of Conan, which is why every PC can finesse at will :wink:

But more importantly than all that analysis is that

2) actual gameplay says the exact opposite of what you do all the games I have played and all the games I have heard of being played say that Str is the better option by default. Finesse is for when you have to or if you build a high-Dex character designed as a finesse fighter.


And honestly, I find your analysis suspect as I cannot imagine any circumstances where the knife (1d4) is a better choice of weapons than the Bill (2d8) :?

 

[Anonymous]

For bigger DR (like DR 9 or 12) Str is unquestionably the way to go as I dont' really think many characters have a high enough attack bonus to hit DV + 12 for most opponents they face (or if they do, then they are high enough over their opponent that this argument is reall a non-issue) and since most finesse weapons damage die won't get past DR 10 the finesse fighter is royally screwed.

I disagree. BAB progressions increase much faster (+15 to +20) than DV progressions (+7 to +15). This is common in d20 games to deal with escalating HP. However, at the highest levels, all other things being equal, having an aggregate +10 to hit is not that far fetched.

FYI this is why I tested BAB being even, exceeding by 5 and exceeding by 10 than the DV. This should give a (very) rough estimate of 1st level, 10th level and 20th level opponents of equal skill.

Because of this Criticals become proportionally more common in D20 as you go up in levels. Also as a result, finesse will naturally become a better option at higher levels.

I agree that Strength should remain the default option it's benefit are limited to getting an additional 5 or 6 HP at the most. A high level opponent should be able to recoup that with finesse reasonably quickly. The same goes with my suggested change. The main difference is that using Str now receives a benefit where AP is under DR. I find this has actually balanced things out a little more between the two options.

actual gameplay says the exact opposite of what you do all the games I have played and all the games I have heard of being played say that Str is the better option by default. Finesse is for when you have to of if you build a high-Dex character designed as a finesse fighter.

Ain't that the truth.

And honestly, I find your analysis suspect as I cannot imagine any circumstances where the knife (1d4) is a better choice of weapons than the Bill (2d8) :?

:? I never said that at any stage. A Bill will be better than a Knife at every stage. My comment was that with a Knife, finesse will nearly always be the better option. With a Bill, finesse is rarely if ever the better option. I think this is relatively intuitive.

 

[argo]

I disagree. BAB progressions increase much faster (+15 to +20) than DV progressions (+7 to +15). This is common in d20 games to deal with escalating HP. However, at the highest levels, all other things being equal, having an aggregate +10 to hit is not that far fetched.

See, I think this is where you are failing to pull it together. I say that because you are so right and yet so wrong at the same time. You are very right that a full BAB, dedicated melee character (weither they are Str or finesse it doesn't matter) should be about +10 over the DV of an "apropriate" encounter. That is prety basic. What you seem to be forgetting is that if a finesse fighter fails to roll DV + DR for his attack then he has to absorb the full DR of the opponent. So if your opponent has a high DR, like say platemail at DR 10, and you are +10 to hit above his DV then guess what? You're screwed! To put it another way; in a "balanced" encounter a full BAB type should expect his first attack to hit if he rolls a 10 or better (average for an "even" matchup) giving him 50% odds of hitting. But if his opponent is wearing platemail and he is finessing then he will only bypass the armor if he rolls a 20; a 5% chance! And since the biggest damage die on a finesse weapon is 1d12 the finesse fighter will most likely wind up doing no damage at all. :shock:

Contrast that with a Str fighter (who has the same attack bonus). If his AP is 10 or better then he will halve the opponent's DR to 5. Since the Str fighter is likely wielding a weapon that does something like 2d8 damage and has a higher Str bonus to damage he can probably eat that 5 points of DR and still do decent damage. Or, lets say for the sake of argument that the Str fighter is caught with a weapon whose AP is too low for him to penetrate DR 10. He can still take his weapon in two hands and PA for 5 for an added 10 damage which will give him the same effect as bypassing the armor completly. This means he has to roll a 15 now to hit (25% instead of 50%) but at least he will still do some damage on something other than a crit.

In order for a finesse fighter to reliably bypass heavy armor he needs to be something like +15 - +20 up on his opponent's DV. In other words he really needs to outclass his opponent if he wants to find the cracks in a suit of platemail. This is intentional and, I think, does a goos job of representing the kind of combat we see in the Conan stories.

The place where finesse fighting is worthwhile is against opponents wearing light or medium-light armor (and perferably a couple levels lower too). In this case the finesse fighter probably can count on reliably bypassing DR and the extra 2 or 3 points of damage he picks up that way lets him bridge the gap between him and the Str fighter. Again, this models the Howard stories.

And honestly, I find your analysis suspect as I cannot imagine any circumstances where the knife (1d4) is a better choice of weapons than the Bill (2d8)

:? I never said that at any stage. A Bill will be better than a Knife at every stage. My comment was that with a Knife, finesse will nearly always be the better option. With a Bill, finesse is rarely if ever the better option. I think this is relatively intuitive.

Ok, I misunderstood your earlier post then. But, um, that raises two big questions then

1) Finessing a knife gives better results than Str wielding a knife: Yes, true. And that is the way it is suppose to be I think

2) Finessing a Bill gives better results than Str wielding a Bill: Um, you do realize that you can't finess a bill right? :? You can only finesse light weapons and one or two-handed weapons which have been designated as finesse weapons (namely the War Spear, Staff, Broadsword in two hands, Arming Sword, and War Sword in two hands, oh and the Whip). I mean, that is kind of the point. Most finesse weapons have lousy stats compared to Str weapons.

Or did you know that and I misunderstood what you were saying again?

 

[Anonymous]

See, I think this is where you are failing to pull it together. ... What you seem to be forgetting is that if a finesse fighter fails to roll DV + DR for his attack then he has to absorb the full DR of the opponent.

Actually, I did take that into account with my stats. It is a relatively simple calculation:

{% to get Finesse Hit x Average Finesse Damage} + {% to get Reduced Hit x Average Reduced Damage}

As the DR increases the chance of getting a finesse hit falls and the chance of getting a reduced hit rises. The result is a decrease in average damage. I then compared this to the average damage from a strength hit.

Ok, I misunderstood your earlier post then. But, um, that raises two big questions then

1) Finessing a knife gives better results than Str wielding a knife: Yes, true. And that is the way it is suppose to be I think

2) Finessing a Bill gives better results than Str wielding a Bill: Um, you do realize that you can't finess a bill right?

Yes I agree that it is good that a Knife is better as a finesse weapon. It is so in the current rules and the same result when using the house rule supports the fact that it is producing the right results.

As for the Bill, please reread what I said. A Bill statistically is rarely if ever better when finessed. Again, a good result and supports the fact that my house rule is producing the right results.

As to a Bill not being able to be finessed, you are indeed correct as the rules are written. However, I did mention earlier that I found that using my house rule, not using some bigger weapons as finesse weapons actually became more intuitive through the rules. So, the need for adding specific restrictions into the special rules for every weapon disappeared. As such, I was vaguely considering dropping the rules in favour of simplicity and letting logic work by itself. Hence why I added the Bill into my Finesse analysis, to check whether I could do this or not.

 

[Anonymous]

Whoops. Just assume that every Guest post on this thread is me

 

[Anonymous]

Maybe I should just restate what I am intending:

A weapon's AP (not including Str bonus) is reduced from an Armour's DR directly.

The result is very similar to the existing system. However, effect of DR is gradual rather than providing a drop off point where some weapons become ineffective.

In general, weapons do roughly 1 or 3 HP more at times especially on DRs that are just above the AP. But hi Strength wielders may suffer up to a 3 HP reduction against the heaviest armours. Essentially, they don't get the double whammy from hi Str reducing DR as well as causing more damage.

Graphically, the decrease in damage over DR starts as a flat line and then changes to a medium slope until it hits 1. The current rules have a slight slope (half that of the medium slope) that suddenly drops off once the DR exceed AP.

I have checked this house rule against Finesse and actually found that the rules seem to make the finesse rules more intuitive and balanced. I have check this very roughly from 1st level up to 20th level. Leaving aside the effects of a hi Str or Dex, small weapons remain better in finesse, larger weapons in Str and med weapons will depend on the level of DR and other features such as Attributes.

Now I note that my statistics are by no means fool proof and are overly simplified. Much of the result appeals to me solely because of my preference for gradual rules effects (so I don't need to write scenarios around "x points") and simple and intuitive rules where possible.

 

[argo]

As for the Bill, please reread what I said. A Bill statistically is rarely if ever better when finessed. Again, a good result and supports the fact that my house rule is producing the right results.

As to a Bill not being able to be finessed, you are indeed correct as the rules are written. However, I did mention earlier that I found that using my house rule, not using some bigger weapons as finesse weapons actually became more intuitive through the rules. So, the need for adding specific restrictions into the special rules for every weapon disappeared. As such, I was vaguely considering dropping the rules in favour of simplicity and letting logic work by itself. Hence why I added the Bill into my Finesse analysis, to check whether I could do this or not.

Well now you've gone and confused me all to hell.

Let me try and get this straight. When you made this statment earlier:

Where BAB and DV are even the Knife is always better with Finesse, the Broad Sword around DR 6 and the Bill never.

Where BAB exceeds DV by 5 the Knife is always better with Finesse, the Broad Sword around DR 5 and the Bill never.

Where BAB exceeds DV by 10 the Knife is always better with Finesse, the Broad Sword around DR 4 and the Bill around DR 11.


BTW the current system basically makes finesse always better option except at low levels or where there is exceptional Strength.

When you said "current system" you meant to say the "current system of your house rules" and not "the current system of the stock Conan rules" (which is what I thought you meant up until now)???

Damn son, all this time I'm trying to convince you that under stock Conan finesse is not better than Str. :lol: Well yeah, if you add AP as a bonus to damage and let the Bill be used as a finesse weapon there will come a time where it is better to finess said Bill than not!! I'd say that right there is a prety clear indication that your house rules aren't working too well. Not to mention the fact that it gives some weapons a boost to damage of 6 or 7 points, which will look absouetly horrible on a crit, and everything else thats already been mentioned as a reason not to do it.

Now my brain just hurts...

 

[argo]

Maybe I should just restate what I am intending:

I think I finally understand the words comming out of your mouth. Makes life a lot easier too.

Now I note that my statistics are by no means fool proof and are overly simplified. Much of the result appeals to me solely because of my preference for gradual rules effects (so I don't need to write scenarios around "x points") and simple and intuitive rules where possible.

Gradual rules effects and d20 gamming are like Picts and Cimerians, put em together and somebodys gonna loose his head. The entire set of d20 rules is built on arbitraty cut-off points. Thats what makes it work.

Aw... you already know what I think. I see no point in me belaboring you about it. :roll:

Wish you the best of luck. I hope you and your group have a good time adventuring in the lands of Howard.

Later.