TL to justify a Jump 6

[Reynard]

"True, but it would no longer be a TL 12 ship. Even if you don't consider it a TL 15 ship, it would still have TL 15 components and wouldn't truly be a TL 12 ship anymore."

When I design ships I note the TL of each component. When finished, it is assumed the ship must be built at a facility of the highest TL component. When regular maintenance comes due, it must be at a yard of the highest TL. If you are specifically repairing a certain component, the TL of the component determines the minimum shipyard TL. This applies when components are refitted for higher TL units. Cobbled ships are no longer a specific tech level and are judge by their components.

 

[PsiTraveller]

The issue is that the cost of the high tech systems is far higher and overkill for what the system needs.

Let's assume a Jump1 Collector Ship. It will spend its life Jumping around a Main making deliveries. The builders want to save on fuel cost so they splurge on the TL 14 Collector System.

So what else is needed at TL 14? Jump 1 software needs 5 bandwidth, so a TL 9 Bandwidth 10 computer for 160 000 Credits would suffice. The Jump engines could be TL 9 as well. The Hull has no tech level, Sensors might be minimal.

So would the 5 Tech level difference cause a problem for the Computer and software? the Jump Engines?

To work with a Jump 1 engine and the TL 14 Collector would a TL 14 Computer worth 20 Million need to be purchased?
Installing lower tech allows a builder to save money and install systems that are as strong as they need to be.

The ship only needs a 5 bandwidth computer, I picked 10 just to be on the safe side. Can you buy a TL `12 or TL 14 10 bandwidth computer for 160 000? If so I want one.

 

[-Daniel-]

I just can't help but wonder how much of these points are really folks trying to find logical background reasons to control meta-game issues. You see an issue within the rules so rather than admit the rule needs to be controlled you try to find an "in game" reason. For me, if a particular combo seems to break the game I have no issue telling my players it is out and no amount of in game logic will change it. Just seems easier to me.

 

[Sigtrygg]

If a rule doesn't reflect how things work in the real world then you need an insetting explanation or a revision of the rule.

Ships, aircraft, cars etc. here in the real world are built from components that may ne manufactured in completely different countries, with some of the electronic systems only manufacturable in a few places worldwide.

Import of components and spares should be a thing in the 3I setting, as should being able to select different TL components.

 

[fusor]

You see an issue within the rules so rather than admit the rule needs to be controlled you try to find an "in game" reason.

This is a time-honoured tradition in the game (see: dodgy economics, unrealistic results of random world generation, etc). Welcome to Traveller.

(the other option of course is to say "this is broken in the rules, but I'm fixing it like this in my game")

 

[-Daniel-]

If a rule doesn't reflect how things work in the real world then you need an insetting explanation or a revision of the rule.

I do not always agree with this thinking. For example, why limit a human to a STR of 15? Why not 20? No real reason, the game mechanic dictates 15 is the upper end. It just is. No need for an in game explanation nor a rule change. The game mechanic can stand as just that, a way to allow game play. Same goes for many other rules. I think it is this driving need to have an in game explanation that sometimes creates larger issues as rule tweaks and complications are added to make it "more realistic". The original choice to make jumps limited to 1-6 is just a game mechanic. He could have made them 1-8 or 1-10. For me, there comes a point where I accept that for game mechanics we have X or Y as a limiter just is. But I also get this is just my opinion and not a "fact". But I do see some folks trying so hard to find answers when I suspect some items are just game mechanics and just are. Strength just tops out at 15 kind of thing.

 

[-Daniel-]

You see an issue within the rules so rather than admit the rule needs to be controlled you try to find an "in game" reason.

This is a time-honoured tradition in the game (see: dodgy economics, unrealistic results of random world generation, etc). Welcome to Traveller.

(the other option of course is to say "this is broken in the rules, but I'm fixing it like this in my game")

True, some fun and quite long conversations result for this time honored tradition. :mrgreen:

 

[Condottiere]

Just because you can rip a gorilla apart, your skeletal joints might fall off as well not being genetically modified to take that strain, hence the fifteen point limitation on strength.

 

[Reynard]

The 6 Million Dollar Man could lift a bulldozer with his bionic arm because the creators said so and made people go WOW.. No upper limit. If a real bionic human with such an arm plus a couple bionic legs tried to do that the arm would painfully rip away at the shoulder. Just because you can pick a number out of the air and say it must be possible doesn't mean it makes sense. Upper limits impose some reasonable expectations to a game so it doesn't become a pure magic/superhero RPG. The game creators wanted what seemed a reasonable limit because humans and other lifeforms aren't physically unlimited. This is also the logic for Traveller technology making a manageable framework for rules without runaway power and ability to men and machines. Keep It Simple so it's playable.

 

[phavoc]

Tl15 gear I'd meany to work with Tl15 equipment. It's no different than what we have today. When you start mixing up different equipment that wasn't designed to work with other gear you can get problems.

Or what you get is the higher TL gear that gets stepped down to work with the lower level gear.

All I'm saying is that if you have a mishmash of equipment because a player is trying to cherry pick the best from everything then it's also fair for a ref to come up with issues that would result from mixing TL together.

I could mix 10base t, token ring, wireless a,b,g,n and giga bit fiber in my network. But I'm going to have some issues related to making it all work together well. Or I could install 5 inch guns instead of cannons on a two deck Royal Navy frigate but the decks arent built for that so I might have to reinforce them with steel, which causes my ship to be heavier and to have different sailing characteristics, etc, etc.

There isn't a hard and fast rule to it, but players tend to min max anything they create because who wants to create a general purpose ship that isn't going to kick ass in at least one category? In reality navies DO want boring general purpose warships because they need them.

Players and reality often have a very frustrating interaction. Which is ok since it's a game.

 

[-Daniel-]

Just because you can rip a gorilla apart, your skeletal joints might fall off as well not being genetically modified to take that strain, hence the fifteen point limitation on strength.

I think you missed my point. 15 is the upper limit because we say it is. In D&D the range is 3-18, in another game I have the range is 1-100. Regardless of the number you elect to assign the "top end" it is just a game mechanic. The point is, I understand there is an upper limit to human physical strength, but the game mechanic is just that.

Same goes for many other game mechanics. Why is a jump 6 the max? Why not 5 or 4 or 20? Because the game designer picked the range of 1-6. It is an artificial game mechanic.

But as fuser so nicely put it, the need to take a game mechanic and force an real world explanation onto it is a "time-honoured tradition in the game". So I will stop this side track to the topic of the thread and let the conversation regarding the TL needed to justify a Jump 6 continue. :mrgreen:

 

[Condottiere]

We wondered about that with Shrek's Gauntlets, and Girdle of Giant Strength.

They magically strengthen the rest of our body to take that strain.

Science needs more than a wizard.

 

[fusor]

Same goes for many other game mechanics. Why is a jump 6 the max? Why not 5 or 4 or 20? Because the game designer picked the range of 1-6. It is an artificial game mechanic.

Incidentally, jump6 isn't the max. Previously J36 was actually the theoretical max, as there were supposedly different layers of jump space that one could jump into - J6 was just the maximum that the 3I had achieved so far.

Now as I understand it there are silly "hop" and "skip" drives in T5 that let you go 10-60 or 100-600pc in a jump, so that existing idea has probably been randomly tossed out of the window now. I'm not really sure why these exist since I don't recall anyone crying out for them.

 

[-Daniel-]

Same goes for many other game mechanics. Why is a jump 6 the max? Why not 5 or 4 or 20? Because the game designer picked the range of 1-6. It is an artificial game mechanic.

Incidentally, jump6 isn't the max. Previously J36 was actually the theoretical max, as there were supposedly different layers of jump space that one could jump into - J6 was just the maximum that the 3I had achieved so far.

Ok, range 1-36 then. :lol:

 

[Condottiere]

Isn't that when the Universe told you to get lost?

 

[PsiTraveller]

Using the advanced Tech table on pg 48 I guess a Tech 15 Starport could make a TL 17 Jump Drive and write TL 17 software for a Jump 8 Ship? It would be at 1000% of cost and have a couple of Disadvantages, but you would have a pretty fast ship.

And likely need 40 Bandwidth to run the software.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Using the advanced Tech table on pg 48 I guess a Tech 15 Starport could make a TL 17 Jump Drive and write TL 17 software for a Jump 8 Ship? It would be at 1000% of cost and have a couple of Disadvantages, but you would have a pretty fast ship.

And likely need 40 Bandwidth to run the software.

Yes (if the Referee is willing).

I would say it involves a major, long-term research program, so it is unlikely to be available at any shipyard as a standard option, but it can be done.

And if so there are probably a secret Jump-8 part of the X-boat network.

From Regina to Capital is about 40 jumps at J-4 or about 20 jumps at J-8. If we jump an X-boat every tree days on each 20 jump relays it would take about 20 × 4 plus spares = 100 X-boats to connect Regina to Capital. Each X-boat could cost about MCr 600 so a hundred boats would cost GCr 60, less than a single capital ship.

 

[PsiTraveller]

Just to bring this thread back up for a discussion.

Fusor mentioned that J36 was the max Jump known. This is an interesting point. A TL 9 Jump 1 Jump engine is capable of making up to a Jump 36 on a misjump. The jump distance is in a random location, but the point is that a TL 9 Jump Engine can do more than Jump 1. A 1D x 1D Jump effect in a random direction is the capacity of any ship during a Misjump.

This opens up an interesting (if somewhat geeky) area for discussion.

Assume a 100 ton ship with 2.5 tons of TL 9 Jump engine, and Jump 1 software running. The ship suffers a misjump. The lucky roll of 6 parsecs comes up in the 1D X 1D roll. Luckily again the system they appear in is inhabited. The J1 ship just did a J6.

Normally a J6 Jump needs 10 percent of engine size and 60 percent of fuel. The TL 9 ship had none of that.

So do engines really need to be percentage and tech based? Why does more fuel need to be pumped into a bubble for a greater distance?

This question ignored the 36 parsec max range of a Misjump. That should need 360 percent of hull volume to accomplish, yet it doesn't.

I don't think there is an answer, this is just something geeky I thought up. It gets worse in 1st edition psionics when a J1 ship can do J6 or even J7. Max Jump would be Jump 12 without extra fuel or software. Depending on the psion a Jump Engine is not required.But that is another thread I think.

 

[fusor]

I don't think there's much about jumpspace that makes logical sense: 100D limits based on radius, misjumps throwing you further than your fuel and engine could possibly allow, short in-system jumps taking the same amount of time as 6 parsec jumps.

I think the idea was that jumpspace had layers and that each J-drive level allows you to access a different layer, but somehow it always takes a week to travel somewhere no matter what. Even if you had J3 to jump 1pc, it'd still take a week because for some reason even though you have a drive capable of using the J3 layer, you still have to go through the J1 layer.

Though now this idea has probably been tossed out since apparently we have "hop" and "skip" drives that go 10-60 or 100-600pc per jump.